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Discussion Starter #1
Hi folks,

Yes, this is yet another thread about buying my first HK. ^L^

On a side note, what is pushing me over the edge are comments by Bruce Gray, of Grayguns Inc., about how the HK pistols are the only ones still made the good old fashioned way. -L-

Bruce built me a SIG Sauer P220 custom in 10mm, which is a beautiful gun, but it seems that some MBA that helped ruin Kimber is now in charge at SIG, and their innovations are falling to "rainbow anodizing" and "diamond plate" slides. ºLº

Here are pictures of my SIG P220-10mm, for what it is worth:





So, back to "the question"! ^L^ I think I want a Mark 23 (M723001-A5). I am crazy about accuracy, and at 6'2" and 240 lbs, with hands that have long fingers, I'm not worried about the size of the gun, just how well is shoots. I also like the regular HK 45 guns. I don't seem to like the USP weapons, they seem oddly rounded to me. (Weird, I know!)
I am attracted to the P30 series, but I like the .45 ACP cartridge a lot. I mean, I do have .40 S&W and 9mm Parabellum weapons, but the .45 seems to just "push" instead of "snap" like some of the smaller cartridges.


So, do I just get a Mark 23? Should I look at the smaller HK 45 more? If I were to get a P30, which one would you recommend? I am finding some of the V3 talk a bit confusing! (But then, I am easy to confuse! *L* ) How many variants of the P30 are there?


Thanks in advance for your help! ^L^


- Thomas
 

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Welcome to the forum, nice Sig - I am a fan of the Match USP
Here is one on gun broker HK H&K USP 45 MATCH STAINLESS {TOMB RAIDER GUN} : Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com

Im not sure what variants your looking for so here are what I have found




Variants 1 and 2 (double action/single action, decocking and safety lever)
Variants 1 (lever on left) and 2 (lever on right) allow the user to carry the pistol in a single-action mode (cocked and locked) with the manual safety engaged. This same pistol, without modification, can be carried in double-action mode, with or without the manual safety engaged, and with the benefit of a decocking lever.
Variants 3 and 4 (double action/single action, decocking lever, but no safety)
Variants 3 (lever on left) and 4 (lever on right) provide the user with a frame-mounted decocking lever that does not have the "safe" position. This combination only allows the hammer to be lowered from SA position to DA position. It does not provide the "safe" position to prevent the pistol from firing when the trigger is pulled.
Variants 5 and 6 (double action only, with safety lever)
For the double action only user, variants 5 (lever on left), 6 (lever on right), and of the USP operate as double action only pistols with a bobbed hammer always returning to the DA position (forward) after each shot is fired. To fire each shot, the trigger must be pulled through the smooth DA trigger pull. Variants 5 and 6 have a manual safety lever.
Variant 7 (double action only, no control lever)
No control lever is provided on variant 7.
Variant 8 Never produced.
Variants 9 and 10 (double action/single action, safety lever, but no decocking)
Variants 9 (lever on left) and 10 (lever on right) allow the shooter to carry the pistol in a single-action mode (cocked and locked) with the manual safety engaged. This same pistol, without modification, can be carried in double-action mode (hammer down), with or without the manual safety engaged. The double action mode offers a second strike/double action capability in case of a misfire. The control lever has no decocking function on variants 9 and 10 so one would have to carefully lower the hammer manually (or keep the safety on, remove the magazine, and eject any round in the chamber before lowering the hammer).
LEM (Law Enforcement Modification) Trigger
Developed especially for the U.S. government, the Law Enforcement Modification (or LEM for short), is a USP DAO (Double-Action Only) model with a unique trigger mechanism. This mechanism improves the double action trigger performance and reduces the weight of the DAO trigger pull to 7.5–8.5 pounds-force (33–38 N), uses a stronger hammer spring, and shortens the trigger reset. Aside from the LEM mechanism, it is identical to the USP Variant 7 (DAO) model.
 

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that's a fine 10mm! hunting pistol! I used to be a sig fan, especially since i guess we all look up to the SAS in the SOF community. But, i also heard of the issues due to outsourcing for cost cutting. HKs dont seem to care about additional profits and decided to go with quality, with each tny part manufactured still at the deutschland plant.
i still want one of those new sig pro nitron TB. i had a lot of trigger time with an old sig pro (rounded trigger guard) and liked it.

In my opinion, an HK45 would be a better choice. It alrady integrates a lot of improvements they learned from the USP and mark23 line. You could also get a TB for a longer barrel. But i think it's biggest point over the mark 23 is that it's by a huge margin a more aesthetically sound gun! hehe. just me! mark23 owners pls dont bash me for this! (hides behind hard cover)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the help folks,

The HK 45 does seem like a reasonable middle ground, but I have some fascination with the giant Mark 23. I probably have unrealistic expectations for its accuracy, and it's obviously not very practical, yet.... -L-

For example, I was looking at the GunBroker action for the USP Match, and my heart leaped at the description comment, "The USP Match pistol approaches the precision found on the Mark 23 by adding a special barrel weight system, extended target barrel, adjustable trigger, and target sights to the USP .45 ACP. USP Match pistols use the same patented recoil reduction system found on the full-frame USP and the Mark 23..." I found myself saying (to myself) "See, the Mark 23 can't be beat!" -L- As you can tell, I have it bad.

The SIG by the way, is a very nice gun, perhaps because it is large and steel, I hardly notice the recoil of the mightiest 10mm rounds. (I also have two S&W 1006 semi autos and they are also 'tanks'! ^L^) I am a little disappointed in the trigger, coming from Bruce, as there is a fair amount of movement in single action and the break doesn't seem as crisp as some of my S&W revolvers. But it seems pretty accurate, and it just looks wicked! ^L^ If I were making a "detective action" movie, this is what the hero would slip out of his shoulder holster! =L=

Hey Dessy, are those variants of the P30? The stuff I found confusing was the V1 - V2 - V3, P30L, P30S, extended barrel discussions. Of course the action variations add to the matrix, but I feel like I at least understand most of them!

I am battling my hind-brain here I think. I have the "bad" feeling I am going to order the Mark 23, then after I shoot it for a while, realize it is an impractical gun and then get the HK 45. I can feel myself saying that if I get the HK 45, I am still going to wonder about the Mark 23 forever, so I might as well get one and put out that fire. If it is too ridiculous, I'm sure I could sell it at some loss, and then move on. Or get a suppressor and paint my face black! ^L^ Woohoo!

- Thomas
 

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Nice 220,
In my opinion the mk23 has no tangible advantage over USP45 Tactical/Expert. The pistol was built of of a list of requirements by to SOF community and the pistol met every said requirement, yet still the end user often preferred something else. It is one hell of a pistol that will withstand the long and deep dives many SEAL teams conduct where other pistols wouldn't hold up, it's easy to shoot, and comes with its own tripod. As far as accuracy I believe the Expert is the winner. I have had two tacticals, fired the mk23 a bit, and now own an expert. If your looking for a collectors piece or have plenty of money to spend then get a 23, hell do like some of the other folks on here and get them ALL.

I'm also curious about all the "L" typings you use in your posts, maybe I'm not www.savvy enough or I dont get out much. Would/could you elaborate?

Either way you go you'll get a fine weapon as I stand by HK, not because I have made up my mind to, I have always been a Republican or Fords are all I've ever owned, they just keep doing it right. Fords been pissing me off over the years and well politics, I've come to hate all of 'em.

Happy shooting,

Josh
 

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I like the ergonomics on the newest HK pistols, P2000 or 45C. They are uber comfortable to shoot!
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Thanks for your frank assessment Josh, it all sounds very sensible. (Darn it!) ^L^

These "L" notations are little faces to express emotion, the L is the nose with eyes on each side. (I should really have a cut and paste answer set up for this)

^L^ = Happy, Smiling
ºLº = Shocked, In Awe
@[email protected] = Hypnotized
*L* = Starry Eyed, Dizzy
#L# = Angry, Drunk
-L- = Bashful, Chagrined
=L= - Squinting, Sleepy

I think the eyes are more expressive than the mouth, so I prefer these over the usual :), :/, :D symbols.

Back on topic, I am trying hard to convince myself that the Mark 23 is a childish obsession, and you folks are helping me, so please keep it up! -L-

- Thomas
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Hello friendly forum folk,

This morning I have been looking at the HK site for the Expert and Elite variations of the .45 pistols and not finding anything. Are they no longer produced? Should I look on auction sites? Is there a favorite HK shopping site?

Tempted Thomas

EDIT: Okay, if I search using the "Expert" and "Elite" text I am finding pages, but they aren't listed when you just go in from the top. Are they still sold? Out of production?
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
"You said your a pretty big guy, and I know your armed, so WHO broke your nose? "L"..."

Well, you know, some big guys can be a little slow... But I got even!

- Thomas
 

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Hello friendly forum folk,

This morning I have been looking at the HK site for the Expert and Elite variations of the .45 pistols and not finding anything. Are they no longer produced? Should I look on auction sites? Is there a favorite HK shopping site?

Tempted Thomas
PM sent
 

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Thanks for the help folks,

The HK 45 does seem like a reasonable middle ground, but I have some fascination with the giant Mark 23. I probably have unrealistic expectations for its accuracy, and it's obviously not very practical, yet.... -L-

For example, I was looking at the GunBroker action for the USP Match, and my heart leaped at the description comment, "The USP Match pistol approaches the precision found on the Mark 23 by adding a special barrel weight system, extended target barrel, adjustable trigger, and target sights to the USP .45 ACP. USP Match pistols use the same patented recoil reduction system found on the full-frame USP and the Mark 23..." I found myself saying (to myself) "See, the Mark 23 can't be beat!" -L- As you can tell, I have it bad.

The SIG by the way, is a very nice gun, perhaps because it is large and steel, I hardly notice the recoil of the mightiest 10mm rounds. (I also have two S&W 1006 semi autos and they are also 'tanks'! ^L^) I am a little disappointed in the trigger, coming from Bruce, as there is a fair amount of movement in single action and the break doesn't seem as crisp as some of my S&W revolvers. But it seems pretty accurate, and it just looks wicked! ^L^ If I were making a "detective action" movie, this is what the hero would slip out of his shoulder holster! =L=

Hey Dessy, are those variants of the P30? The stuff I found confusing was the V1 - V2 - V3, P30L, P30S, extended barrel discussions. Of course the action variations add to the matrix, but I feel like I at least understand most of them!

I am battling my hind-brain here I think. I have the "bad" feeling I am going to order the Mark 23, then after I shoot it for a while, realize it is an impractical gun and then get the HK 45. I can feel myself saying that if I get the HK 45, I am still going to wonder about the Mark 23 forever, so I might as well get one and put out that fire. If it is too ridiculous, I'm sure I could sell it at some loss, and then move on. Or get a suppressor and paint my face black! ^L^ Woohoo!

- Thomas
You may have the answer to your quandary. Get em both - I know easy answer - does not have to be all at once, but could be a negotiating position. True, that's me spending your money, but spending it on you and only wishing the best for your state of well being. If I could I would - no when I can I will - be adding the HK45 and the Mark to my HK45c.

Pete

PS
Yes, nice Sig.
 
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