What's the difference between an HK barrel versus a Glock or any other barrel? Does it attract more lead?

 

Polygonal rifling for longer barrel life and better accuracy

 

http://everything2.com/title/Shooting+lead+bullets+in+polygonally+rifled+barrels

I bring this subject up because in all my years of owning guns (more than I'd like to remember), I have never read of a case where shooting lead bullets through an HK (providing the rounds conformed to SAAMI specs and proper seating depth was observed) ever contributed to the early demise of the shooter, the gun, or the factory barrel. In my case I rarely shoot more than a 100 lead rounds at a time, 'fire a few jacketed rounds afterwards to remove excess lead, and then thoroughly field strip and clean the gun,

Just how much accuracy do you need at typical combat distances of 15 yards or less with the HK45c? Longer barrel life? That's a hard one to quantify me think.

 

http://everything2.com/title/Shooting+lead+bullets+in+polygonally+rifled+barrels

I bring this subject up because in all my years of owning guns (more than I'd like to remember), I have never read of a case where shooting lead bullets through an HK (providing the rounds conformed to SAAMI specs and proper seating depth was observed) ever contributed to the early demise of the shooter, the gun, or the factory barrel. In my case I rarely shoot more than a 100 lead rounds at a time, 'fire a few jacketed rounds afterwards to remove excess lead, and then thoroughly field strip and clean the gun,

Just how much accuracy do you need at typical combat distances of 15 yards or less with the HK45c? Longer barrel life? That's a hard one to quantify me think.

1+

I think if a person shoots about 20 rounds of jacketed bullets thru the barrel after 100 rounds of lead to clean up the lead you should be okay..a steady diet of lead with no cleaning...say 500 rounds of lead with no cleaning isnt a great idea.

My Colt 1911's eat 200gr SWC like pigs.

 

HK barrels are polygonal, and therefore do not cut as deeply into the bullet. As a result, there is the possibility that the bullet will not travel the path of the rifiling, but rather jump the lands. This result is rapid lead built-up.

Some Marlin 336 shooters (Marlin 336's are made with Micro Grooves) have reported satisfactory results using cast bullet by shooting bullets 1/1000 over size. Personally, I haven't tried it.

 

you need to lay off the dobe's a bit there guy!

 

I put 1000 rounds of lead (Ultra max) rounds through my USPc with no ill effects at all. I did this over probably four or five range sessions. Just keep your barrel clean.

 

The purpose of jacketing a bullet is to allow higher velocity. Unjacketed lead is perfectly fine in both polygonal and conventional barrels as long as the velocity is kept down to a dull roar. In either a conventional barrel or a polygonal barrel, you WILL get leading if you push unjacketed lead rounds at high velocity.

Glock had a problem (maybe still does) with certain of their polygonal barrels not being safe with unjacketed lead rounds. I believe it had something to do with the design of the transition area between the chamber and the bore. HK polygonal barrels have never had this problem. Many people mistakenly assume that because Glock specifically warns against the use of lead in some of their polygonal barrels, that it is a polygonal barrel issue with unjacketed lead. This is not true. It was specifically a Glock design defect, and not a problem with polygonal barrels per se. HK does not warn against the use of unjacketed lead (as long as the velocity is appropriate).

 

I remember reading this very same information elsewhere but I could not find it. Thank you. Bottom line, for those who are rushing out to buy after-market barrels with conventional rifling to shoot lead bullets, you may be mis-guided particularly in the case of the slow moving but ever-so-potent .45 ACP. Clean your gun throughly after each range session and you should be ok - I would also not shoot more than 100-150 lead rounds at a time. It's the faster .40SW, 9mm and .357 Sig that I would be extra cautious about. For those calibers, I personally would stick to jacketed or plated bullets. My 2-cents.

 

We had to switch to lead when shooting steel at my club. So, for the past two Falls and Winters (~2000 rounds), I have been shooting lead through my USP9F. Leading does not appear to be worse that any other pistol. To be safe, one should de-lead their barrel every 100-200 rounds or if you are switching back to jacketed ammunition.

I have put less than 500 lead rounds through my P2000SK 40S&W, but it also seems to work fine.

I do not put lead through my P7M13.

JPG

 

I do not put lead through my P7M13.

Nor would I, and for obvious reasons.

 

I think this thread has been instrumental in clearing up a lot of misconceptions about shooting lead in HK polygonal barrels. Thanks to all that contributed.

 

Barrel leading has less to do with the barrel and more to do with the cartridge (bullet, case, and powder). Serious reloaders understand the mechanics of barrel leading quite well. Remember that under the right circumstances, copper fouling from jacketed rounds occurs as well.

A lead (unjacketed) bullet of the proper hardness (harder is not always better) with the proper powder charge will expand the base of the bullet (the technical term is obturate) and seal the bore, filling the rifling grooves as the bullet travels the length of the barrel. If the bullet is too soft or the powder charge too hot, it well melt the base and lead will be deposited in the rifling as the bullet travels through the bore. Gas checked bullets sometimes are used to prevent this, although it is not required if the proper bullet/charge combination is used. If the bullet is too hard, it will not obturate properly and hot gas will blow by the bullet, again melting lead on the way out...or because the base is not engaging the rifling, it may skid along the rifling, shaving lead as the bullet travels through the bore. Barrel rifling twist plays a minor part in the barrel leading process; however, most handguns with a typical 1:16 or less twist do not present problems...as long as the proper cartridge is used. There are some mathematical formulas that can be used to determine max velocities and optimum bullet hardness to avoid leading.

I shoot lead in all my pistols including Glocks and HK's with no lead fouling whatsoever and velocities approaching 1200fps, although most of my loads hover between 900-1000fps.

Also, I would caution against trying to clear lead fouling by shooting jacketed bullets through a lead fouled barrel. It's likely to burnish the lead against the barrel making it more difficult to remove and even add some copper fouling on top of the lead. If you do experience lead fouling, I highly recommend the Lewis Lead Removal kit (Brownell's sells it for about $30 IIRC)

 

When lead is mentioned some get confused between the soft lead used in cowboy matches and HardCast lead which i know some that's all they ever shoot in their glocks even in years of GSSF matches.

Plus HC lead for hunting there is no better penetrating bullet. I know a guide and his father guided before him tell me how HC penetrate even thru griz, elk and any other big boned animal.

Link below explains about HC lead by the owner of Buffalo Bore Ammo.

Even with all this said i do not shoot lead in my HK's or Glock's. Except my Glock 20sf 10mm with a after market barrel. Too expensive to risk and don't need a KB not healthy!!

Hard Cast Bullets in Polygonal Barrels

 

Well there two school's of thought's here so here goes:

In looking at the manual it states WARNING: HKI specifically disclaims any responsibilities for any damage or injury that should occur because of, or as a result of, the use of faulty, remanufactured, or reloaded (handloded) ammunition, or of cartridges other than those for which the pistol was originally chambered. So with that being said if something goes wrong that's on you now if you're shooting "FACTORY AMMUNITION" and something goes wrong you have a leg to stand on.

Now for the other side:

Have I shot LSWC through my HK45c the answer to that question is "Yes". I agree with what's being stated when it comes to lead some keys area come into serious play and they are:

Bullet Hardness, Velocity and Pressure

It's a matter of choice but here's a thought and that is this: HK pistol are expensive your choice.

HKOREGUN

 

So, what exactly are you trying to say? use only "factory ammo"? I had a new CZ85 combat blow up in my hands using "factory ammo"..Believe me you haven't lived until you had that happen to you..Considering the downhill slide of factory ammo QC within the last few years, I'll load my own, I know what went into them, and who made them, and exactly what QC was used. more than can be said for "factory ammo". It is a matter of choice, if you want to use only factory ammo, by all means go for it, I'll stick with what works for me.

 

OK no harm no foul, maybe I steered away from the thread and to fo back to the original point can you shoot lead through your barrel well... sure

Do I do it... Yes and my recipe is as follows:

Case: Mixed
Primer: Remington Large Pistol or Winchester Large Pistol
Powder: Red Dot @ 3.9 Grains
Bullet: 200 Grain LSWC 16 BHN
COl: 1.250"
Taper Crimp: .472"

This load works well in all of my pistols 3HK's & 3 Sig P220's and I accept all risk's involved.

HKOREGUN

 

I have an easy 20k + of precision bullets in 40 fs along with titegroup behind it and 1000's through glocks. I am also using slightly reduced load in my USP expert to make Major PF (longer barrel). I have range sessions that last 2 to 3k before cleaning and my cleanings are a simple field strip into my ultrasonic cleaners for a few minutes. I would say titegroup is not ideal as its a very hot powder and can burn off some lead if I punch it up. But it seems to meter GREAT in my dillon 650.

They are a little dirtier firing when I get the veloicities up (or temp actually) but I load about 100 rounds for 11 bucks or so, helps keep the costs down. With my round count in a month thats alot of money.

Now I would never push a 9mm to Major power factor, I am right at the cross over point with my 40 loads, I use montana gold for that.

 

Some ammo companies do state warnings for Glock and HK barrels using hardcast bullets:
DoubleTap Ammunition

 

That warning is for a +P LSWC load...that's asking for trouble (leading) in any barrel IMHO. The only application I can see for that load is for major PF in competition shooting...but there are non +P loads that will get you there. I always associate +P ammo with SD applications, not competition shooting.

 

If you want to split hairs:

The H&K warranty does not preclude the use of "manufactured" lead ammo, so my take on that is that lead is acceptable.

Regardless, I have complete confidence in my own ability to safely manufacture my own lead ammo without affecting the safety of my pistols.

HKOREGUN: I've recorded your recipe for future use...I don't have any Red Dot and I've never tried it, so I'll have to pick up a pound and try it out. Do you have any Chrono or pressure data for that load?

 

Very true. That load in particulair is for the trail. Besides some pratice, most will not shoot that load down range very often or use it for self defence against other people.

 

Does anyone have any BHN data for the 255 gr rounds from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap? They look like two different bullets that are loaded to two different velocities. The DT looks like a LSWC loaded to 875 fps and the BB looks like a RNFP loaded to 920 fps. I suspect they are both Rim Rock bullets that are cast to 20-22 BHN.

 

I avoided the entire issue and simply bought a Lone Wolf extended, threaded barrel for our G23s.. this will also allow me to add a suppressor later on if I decide to go NFA

I hard cast my own bullets from Lee Tumble Lube molds into a bucket half full of cold water.. then lube them with the Lee liquid lube

 

I have shot a lot of lead over the years. Military bench rest and pistol. I use Missouri Bullet company lead bullets with no problems. 9mm and 357Sig in particular. AAC #7 in both calibers. 9mm I use 147grn subsonic and 125 grain. 125 grain in 357Sig. Loads are not that hot. P30 and USPc in 9mm and Uspc in 357Sig. All w/ HK factory barrels. I have shot lead through my P7 w/ no probs as well. Gas piston like a M1 carbine and M1 Garand. I have used lead in both w/o build up probs and hot enough to work the action. Longest I have shot lead through my P30 and 9mm USPc was 200 rounds befor I cleaned the bore. 50 rounds through the P7. Keep it w/ in reason and things should be ok.

 

OK, I have finished reading through this post and decided to take the drastic measure of grabbing an owners manual. I realize that reading one's manual is verboten, but I just had to take a look. Low and behold all I could come up with at this hour of the morning is my HK USC (.45 carbine) manual. Don't ask me where my USP manuals are. They weren't where they were supposed to be is all I know. The USC has a polygonal barrel just like its little cousins. Right there in the manual it states that you are not to use unjacketed, or partially jacketed lead ammo. That's not to say the barrel won't handle lead, but should you have any issues it does mean HK said not to do it and if you did... your warranty might be affected. They didn't say that in so many words, but I'd bet my next beer that your warranty wouldn't cover damage due to leading of the barrel. They also warn against using reloads and crappy corroded ammo. Seems to me my USP manuals have an identical warning. You can do what you want, but I'm just saying...

 

Odd, The manual that came with my P-2000 made NO mention either way on the use of lead, However, as I said earlier, someone show me a HK barrel that was damaged JUST from the use of lead bullets only..Not from double charges, wrong powder etc, just from using lead bullets. I haven't seen one yet..As far as voiding warrantys goes, The first time you send a pistol to be worked on by someone who is'nt a HK approved 'smith you voided your warranty, so get a trigger job from Springfield, for example, voids the warranty..I myself shoot my own loads through my P-2000, sure this voids the warranty, But do I care? NO. Those warnings are put in the manual so HK can cover their ass in case some dope blows his pistol up and trys to sue HK for his stupidity.

 

First of all, there is no such thing as "voiding your HK warranty" per se. HK's warranty only covers certain things, and they are all spelled out. Having a trigger job, shooting handloads, detail-stripping your pistol, etc. have all been touted as warranty-voiders. This is not an accurate perception. These and other things are specifically not recommended by HK, but that doesn't mean that if you do them that your pistol will then be bastardized, banned, disowned, or ex-communicated by HK.

HK will only pay for failures that are their own fault. Failures that occur for reasons outside of their control are not their responsibility. If you modify your pistol, and the pistol then fails to function properly due to that modification, HK may charge you to fix it (and rightly so). If factory ammo is defective and blows up your gun, guess what? HK may charge you to fix it, since it wasn't their fault and the cause was outside of their control. Same thing for handloads. Running your own handloads, running store-bought reloads, running lead, hardcast, solid copper, or even 10k gold bullets will not affect your warranty either. But if the ammo blows up in your gun for a reason that is not the fault of HK, guess what? HK may charge you to fix it. If you detail-strip your pistol all the way down to the tiniest component for some reason, and then can't get it back together working right again, guess what? exactly. . . you guessed it. . . HK may charge you to fix it!

If you are out in a field putting up barbed wire, and you use the slide of your pistol to hammer staples into a fence-post, that's your business, and HK doesn't mind a bit. But if you crack your slide doing it, guess what? Now you're getting the idea! However, if you shoot 3,000 rounds of 40 s&w in a single day and your slide suddenly cracks on the 3000th round from normal shooting, HK will take care of you. . . no charge. . . even if the pistol is 12 years old. . . but if you break your toy using it in a way that it wasn't made to be used, you pay to fix it.

The bottom line is that you are free to use your HK pistol any way you choose without "voiding your HK warranty". HK will still love you no matter what. But if it breaks for a reason that isn't their fault, don't hold it against HK nor expect them to have to take the loss for someone else's mistake.

 

I did in my USPT...I had SEVERE leading in just one outting...my cleaning jag kept spitting out chunks. I would NOT suggest it.

 

Personally i would never run lead ammo through my HK. I rather spend the extra bucks and get some jacketed ammo.

 

From the VP9 Owners manual: CAUTION: HK firearms are designed to function with quality, manufactured brass-cased
ammunition. Use of steel or aluminum-cased cartridges is not recommended and
could adversely affect safe and reliable functioning. Use of cast-lead bullets is also not
recommended.

 

I would not do it as per the owners manual.

 

Facts not opinions please guys and let's limit the discussion to HK's not Glocks.

Well, the facts are that a female-type of polygonal rifling is used in CZs, H&Ks & Glocks - the question is whether there is a sharp or a smooth transition between the chamber and the rifling. The way I've avoided issues with cast lead and polygonal rifling is to powder coat cast bullets that run around 10bhn, run'em through a Lee sizer and load away - been using loads that chrono out around 1100fps. NO leading, shavings or any other funky issues. Have been doing this for the past 3 years.