I saw it and it preformed incredible!!! If this goverment can get back on track to bidding for the finest money can buy for our combat soldier then they will win. Untill the evil twins are still greasing their buddies hands with fat contracts you can forget about it... TJ

 

too bad us normal people cant have one.

Ah, quit your complaining. The uppers are available in the civilian market.

 

Thought I would definitely love a different basic infantry weapon than the M16/M4 variants, I do believe the Army made the right choice on holding out until there have been significant testing on the 6.8 round. Yes, it sucks ass for the soldiers, and I wish more of them could have 416/M8's and other, more reliable 5.56 weapon system variants. But why spend so much money arming our soldiers with another weapon system when there quite possibly could be a much better one coming out in the next few years?

 

But why spend so much money arming our soldiers with another weapon system when there quite possibly could be a much better one coming out in the next few years?

Ohh I don't know...to save lives?

 

The price for a colt weapon is not 2k a piece. Look closely at the contract and don't just divide the 2 numbers.

AFA the show I thought it was a big propaganda stunt. He put the gun in water then says that is will blow up because there is barrel in the water- UMM all guns will do this- the piston doesn't provide any protection from water- and BTW when you drain the barrel correctly (same as a piston gun) in a DI gun it will also drain the gas tube.

I also like the sand argument, how does a piston keep a gun running when its full of sand? A piston will not make a gun maintenance free, They will stop like any other.

Pistons have their place but guys treating them like unicorn horns, thinking that it's the end all if ****ing ridiculous. Watch a piston get run hard and fail will make you consider the applicability.

YMMV

 

There are a few reasons why the 416 can fire with water in the barrel, and it's not the piston system. The type of steel they use when making the barrel and how they make the barrel plays a big part in the strength of it during over the beach firing.

Your sand theory is a little off too. I'm not trying to pick at you or your post, but the 416 will go a LOT longer in a sandy environment than the M4 will. The M4 will run, but it needs to be heavily lubricated. Sand sticks to lube. That is where the 416 takes the cake.

Lastly, I don't recall anyone saying that piston weapons were maintenance free. They need to be maintained just like any other weapon. The only difference is you won't be scraping carbon out of your receiver and bolt carrier and the parts will last at least twice as long.

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Not having the reliability issues that the Colt models are so infamous for.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought you were hinting that there may be a weapon system much better than the 416/SCAR/XM8 coming out in a few years. I didn't think you were comparing it to the M4. Since that's the case, I will agree with you there. However, I still believe that while they're conducting tests on the 6.8mm SPC cartridge that they should field something more reliable and better suited for sandy environments than what they are currently using.

 

The fact is that the Army is desirous of staying with a 5.56 AR-based weapon for the time being. Having said that, and knowing full-well that the Army is right now wanting to put down the coin for 500,000 M-4's, the only concern should be that the Army gets the best such rifle for its (our) money. The fact is that the HK416 will kick the Colt product's butt everyday and all day Sunday as well--and for far longer than the Army specifies (6,000 rounds). The HK barrel will go beyond 20,000 whereas the Colt M4 will not.

There is no test that you can run that the Colt M4 will outperform the HK416. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Apologists will say that the Colt product is "good" or "good enough". Both of these are what I call "damning with faint praise". The time for the DI system is past--especially given that a far superior, yet compatible and familiar system is available OFF THE SHELF for very nearly the same cost.

Lastly, don't blame the troops for failings of an outdated operating system.

 

My personal opinion is to not get too wrapped around the axle about the weapon. Most of the issues stemming from the M4 systems are due to ballistic performance of ball ammunition against human beings.

There can be many features to a weapon system to make it more user friendly and ergonomic, but if it shoots mouse farts against bad guys, I don't care about the operating specs, but rather on end use performance.

Also, from my perspective and time in the sand, rate of fire and failure rates didn't mean much. One always cleaned and lubed whatever weapon(s) were fielded. There are some situations where overwhelming rates of fire and extended contact with bad guys will preclude basic maintenance, and then weapon system reliabilty can be a factor, but it just wasn't that much of an issue.

I'd like to see more $$ spent on research for better perfomance ammunition, and legal justifications around the continued use of ball ammunition. As pointed out so many times, in so many venues, this is a new kind of war. We should not be constrained to the use of outdated ammuntion designs. If I can't stop the bad guy with several well placed, efficient bullets, what's the logic against using AT-4's, artillery or tactical air strikes against him.

 

Liberator : Long thread on DragonSkin on LF.net - suffice to say that the armour packaging does not hold up well long term (shifting of plates etc.) within specified temperature range/longevity issues etc. DragonSkin is a good concept, but as far as its immediate potential it is dead in the water. Perhaps one day things will change and materials will improve, but for now it isn't going anywhere.

As far as the HK416 is concerned and the .223/5.56mm round - time to move on to the 6.8SPC I think. Some progression would be nice to see, along with a better weapons/operating system.

Lets see what happens with the dust trials and how that affects the piston system, although HK has done testing in this area before, I think both the HK416 and the FN SCAR will hold up pretty well. Time will tell.

 

but I am currently questioning our military leadership not only on the M4/M16 issue we are discussing, but also on the issue of the DragonSkin armor.

Considering all the contracting scandals the Army is going through right now, I feel the same way too. Is Colt paying officers under the table to stay hush on the 416? The general consensus is that the 416 compared to the M4/16 series of riles is overall better in terms of maintenance and reliability. I wouldn't mind seeing troops not have to clean their rifles so often or WORRY so much on cleaning considering the conditions of their middle east environment i.e. sand, ambushes, etc. If its true that the 416 would cost just the same or cheaper, why the hell not!?

 

I love the HK 416, but it isn't the end all be all of rifles.

Fact is, for a typical loadout, or even an extended firefight, the HK416 isn't going to do much of anything that the Colt can't. Biggest benefit I can see is that the HK's guts stay cooler, and won't burn off lube as quick. Other than that, whats the difference? The testing they did on futureweapons didn't prove anything. If you think a Colt or an LMT couldn't pass those "tests", then you need to get away from your keyboard, and go to the range and start shooting.

For those of you spouting that it can slaughter the current system, have you taken a look at ANY of the sand/dust testing the military has performed with the M4/M16?

I love the 416. I like the ease of maintenence that it supposedly has. I like the fact that I could lube it up, and 1000 rounds later, it will still be there. I like the benefit of a piston system in general, and I think of the major ones out there, the HK is the most well thought out piston system. But lets face it, for the typical Soldier or Marine, the only benefit the 416 would have would be less time spent cleaning. Direct gas impingement is a great system. Just like any other system, it has its advantages and disadvantages, but its disadvantages certainly aren't going to get any of our boys killed due to lack of reliability.