Probably should post this in Clone Talk.

 

One is a clone and the other is (once?) licensed production.

The answer is MKE, unless OP can pick up the Mertsav for far less (like haaaaalf), and he's feeling lucky.

 

The gentleman has a point.

 

Maybe $150 more for the MKE. I have 2 MKE’s, & they both work fine without having to buy HK parts like others do before even testing their gun because they read it on the internet. Bolt gap is .014” on both of mine. GARY.

 

Ok, mke it is. I appreciate it! What would be a good deal for One?

 

My AP-5 was $1107 delivered to my FFL from Atlantic.

 

They're probably made on the same line.

 

No they are not. AP5 is MKE, & Mac5 is Mertsav. Look at the Mac5 K. It has a sling clip on the magwell. No other K from any mfr has a clip on the magwell. That clip is for the full size guns. GARY.

 

Around $1K would be a nice deal for ap5, hopefully on BF.

 

...just pointing out that they do not still have a license to make 70-80s era MP5s from HK.

The "70-80s era" weapons are the ones that we all want. Pindad is about to cash in big for owning "70-80s era" FNC and Beretta M-12 TDPs and machines if they can get their imports through... and nobody serious actually thinks it's a good idea to do gunfighting with an MP5 or an FNC. They want to run the classic type- which is why folks spend twice to make those new-import Galil ACE-types look more like the classic Galils they actually want.

As for not renewing the HK license? Already addressed- they have the TDP containing all the right answers and the proper machinery to implement that- unlike reverse engineered clone junk where they are holding a set of calipers in their hand and thinking, "How do I make it so with the machines I already have?"

What knowledge base hasn’t retired and did they pass that know how down on the way out the door?

This is one where MKE might be ahead of HK. Mustafa has been hard at work in front of his machine for decades while Heinrich only vaguely remembers making MP5s (and spending half the year on vacation) when he was young, and then was training that chubby young kid to make the UMP before he retired.

Do they still manufacture to the standards of the licensing agreement?

We need a Chad SOTAR of the HK world to guage these bad boys and deliver the data, but unfortunately we have the complete opposite in HK world- random guys doing paint sheen analysis and weld microscopy to prove that their garage gun made by an Artisanal Super Smith-person should cost the same as legit production.

One possible reason why they talk about how many years MKE has made weapons and their manufacturing standards but don’t mention the country of origin of MKE on the MKE USA website. Who knows.

Oh, I don't think anyone is confused before about the origin of the legit, Turkish guns... until, perhaps today:

MKE is (once) licensed production, Mertsav is a clone gun.

 

Glad you agree MKE an unlicensed clone of an HK.
and…this thread belongs in Clone Talk 👍

 

Glad you agree MKE an unlicensed clone of an HK.
and…this thread belongs in clone talks 👍

Not a clone at all.

The MKE guns are fully legit MP5-types, not reverse engineered clone junk where they are holding a set of calipers in their hand and thinking, "How do I make it so?"

There are many analogous examples if you're confused.

Look at the FAL world- FN made plenty, but the SAR-48, CAI BSA L1A1, or Poyer Lithgow L1A1 are all examples of licensed or once-licensed production manufactured in the world's great arsenals. There are also clone guns (DSA junkers) and guns made by the Artisanal Super Smith-persons/ Garage Builders of the FAL world.

 

Don’t take my comments as anti clone. I have stated before that clones offer a chance...

No, you just seemed confused about legit (licensed/ "once-licensed") production and clone guns.

It's like Meek Mill said...

As for TDP and licensing sometimes companies that were never licensed make the best clones. Dakota Tactical comes to mind.

None of the garage builders, or even PTR, can approach the level of the genuine article.

But the newer F developments made it a better more durable gun.

Debatable. The MP5F was introduced in 2000, after the subgun era had ended. It did not put in the work of the earlier models that we all love and desire.

I am very interested in IMI guns and have not seen a quality Galil clone. Curious if you think one is well made (experience based not YouTube shills please).

I'm one of the bigger Galil guys out there. Probably the biggest Galil guy on this board.

If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself- IWI refused to deliver what the market wanted, and took their offering further and further into the crapper over several "generations" of ACE. Plus, the J-state needs to be punished for their crimes. It's a shame that we (I) even buy (bought) their old scrap weapons- and I look forward to the day when whatever comes next starts selling off all the other weird stuff that probably has been stockpiled within their holdings.

I shot a PTR9TC (think I got that right) in every way performed like an Hk 94.

PTR is a Meth-P5. Be very careful.

Mounting a suppressor voids your warranty, or it did... unless you also purchase a clone junk 80^o locking piece... which won't rotate in your carrier because one or both parties need to either not be under the influence of substances or properly use calibrated calipers (or both).

I have shot a Century C93 that must have identified as a PSG1 and shot better groups than I have ever seen a Hk93 shoot. Of course it’s mag well was too tight/out of spec and the finish was….questionable….but boy can it group lol. I could see sending to to someone to fix its shortcomings.

I also have a fantastic C93.

The mag well is a little bit long, but works fine with aluminum and steel HK mags... steel need to go in with authority though. The MKE polymer mags do not lock, but that's fine with me, since those are nonstandard.

 

Even if these were made under license (which these aren’t) they would still be clones….just license built clones.
Pronouns, feelings or ernest beliefs notwithstanding.

 

Even if these were made under license (which these aren’t) they would still be clones….just license built clones.
Pronouns, feelings or ernest beliefs notwithstanding.

Nope.

Reverse-engineered commercial American clone junk has nothing to do with the weapons used to keep our world safe.

Just like a garage shop or a daycare for meth addicts has nothing to do with a world-class, ISO certified arms factory serving the world market.

If you're still confused, look at the AK world- prior to the neo-Soviet expansion effort, you could get a Saiga AK from Izhmash and convert it to AKM spec (just as you could get an SP5 and add a paddle and a forward push pin). You could also get a Feg SA-85, Cugir SAR-1, Arsenal SLR-107, or a Maadi MISR.

There are also clone guns (PSA junkers) and guns made by the Artisanal Super Smith-persons/ Garage Builders of the AK world.

There's levels to this ****.

 

I have both, the Zenith imported MKE and the MAC 5. Both take HK parts and welds finish are about the same. I have thousands of rounds out of the MKE and 0 issues, I just got the Mac 5 and have about 500+ rounds out of it this far and no problems. The one thing that I did notice between the two is that I did not have to adjust the sights on the Mac 5 out of the box like I had to do on the MKE.

 

Congrats on both. 👍

 

Both my AP5, & AP5-P needed no site adjustment right out of the box. I just saw a MAC at the local gun show. Looked like it was sprayed with shiny rattle can black paint. Mag fit nice. Welds looked OK, but MKE looked better. GARY

 

I'm old enough to have bought my first HK for less than $700 and sears were a little more than $1000 at that time. Had my hands on lots of HK and "licensed HK's" in my private and professional life, and just about every clone out there. Seen good ones and bad ones, including HK. Seen crap fit and finish on real HK, including their LEO MG's, seen crap fit and finish on "clones". The best coating fit and finish I've ever seen on any HK, clone or not, was done by RDTS, better than most HK's I've seen. I used to be OCD on fit and finish so much so, I was afraid to shoot the damn things. Now it's more will it run and be accurate. I don't really care if the mag has a little wobble, if the welds are not "perfect", or if the finish isn't perfect. Does it do what I want it to do. Now days the HK's sit in the safe more times than not and I run the MKE's all the time. Doesn't bother me if they are put away dirty or not from time to time. If it works it works, and I don't have to worry about messing up an overpriced HK, in my opinion. There are those out there that are HK purest, and that's fine, I was once one as well, but back then there were no "clones", so who knows, now not so much.

 

Exactly.