In this case it means that long ago when Turkey chose HK weapons for their military and police, they stipulated that the weapons had to be produced in Turkey (very common). HK then sold them a package that allowed them to make the weapons in Turkey. Generally that package includes machines and HK factory trainers to teach the folks in Turkey how to make the guns. Depending on the specifics of the deal HK may have also retained the rights to supply (or sign off on) the raw materials used.

Generally only when HK Germany decided MKE (in this case) could manufacture to the applicable standards then they were allowed to produce.

The licensing deal has long since expired, at least that is my understanding, but the guns are still made in that same factory on those same machines.

GHEN

 

This is the most accurate explanation, SPECIFICALLY the last line. They are not HK's. Does that make them bad guns? Absolutely not. They are a good value for the money but let's not be mistaken about what they are or are not. Most importantly however, this will likely all be irrelevant when the SP5K arrives next year for $1500.

 

Here's a look at the factory and manufacturing process:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV1rsKsKuys

 

They are HK's, just made in Turkey is all. Probably the best deal going for what they are.

 

Wrong. They do not have HK quality control, they do not have HK skilled employees manufacturing them, their once HK tooling may be very worn, out of spec, or completely replaced, they may not be using the same grade materials.

Some of the recent MKEs had very significant quality issues. I have never seen an HK with those issues.

 

I've never had a complaint with any of my MKE's. Every one of them functions as well as my HK's they're just not as pretty when new. They look fine though after you drag them through the mud and rocks for a while.

 

And here come the MKE bashers......

HK's are made of Mithril and MKE's are made of tin.

If you don't like them, don't buy them. Me? I LOVE them. As with 7n6, I own both HK's and MKE's and have found both to be equal in terms of Quality where it matters.

 

And here come the MKE bashers......

If you don't like them, don't buy them. Me? I LOVE them. As with 7n6, I own both HK's and MKE's and have found both to be equal in terms of Quality where it matters.

Here's my prediction based on what happened with the imported EBO guns. If they stop importing the MKE's altogether, they will quickly climb in value and be within about 70% of what HK's are selling for. The reason, MKE's are produced on HK tooling that was purchased under HK license. You might find some issues because they are high volume production guns but in the end, it's not a kit gun- it's a mil spec imported weapon.

 

The first thing we will hear is how much better the SP89 and the other 1980 guns are compared to the new HK SP5K. Otherwise the spend is no longer justifiable and the market disintegrates. That is the problem with spending five grand for a gun worth a thousand. It imposes a deeply colored interpretation of its value and worth.

It's coming if the gun is..... I'm just trying to figure out what they will blame it on. Old tooling? Socialism? Lower quality workers?

By far the SP89 will be hit the hardest by this gun. It will also hurt the contract and clone guns but by much less.

The one I want more is the fullsize. They have to know we're buying them all.

 

I wouldn't expect the the sp5k anytime soon and for the guy's against the MKE it's only because it degrades the price of the actual hk weapons, and as said above if hk starts importing or building in the us the sp89's will take a huge hit. I think its great to have the MKE come in and be able to beat the **** out of and save the true hk. All the mke's I've received have been nothing short of perfect, I have a Getz clone and it is nothing short of perfect and that's the other issue the MKE and pof have hurt the clone builders so I understand the some being upset and trying to cut them down but there is no cutting them down they are the best thing going.

 

I don't think the new version of the SP89 would hurt the value of the earlier original guns, not any more than the MAK90 hurt the value of the pre-ban AK-47's, the glut of newer made A2, M4, etc guns have hurt the value of the original SP1 AR-15's, or the U.S. Made MP5 guns have hurt the value of earlier Hk94's or 94's converted to MP5's.

All have their own markets and buyers, none seem to suffer.

Are there folks out there who will buy an MKE or DJ Getz gun or DT gun, but who would never drop the cash on an "original" HK94 or 94 conversion? Yep, lots of them. But there are also enough buyers out there for the original ones to ensure that their value stays high, and won't drop. Might be harder to find the buyers at the higher price points, but they will always be out there.

 

Preban/postban is a completely different argument. The guns are fundamentally different. You can't compare a MAK90 to a preban polytech legend or Norinco 56S-2. If Polytech were suddenly importing the exact same all factory legend series rifles, the bottom would fall out of the ones already here.

We are talking same-sames.

Consider that the SP89 and the SP5K would be exactly the same thing, made in the same factory. Unlike other prebans with a postban counterpart, there would be absolutely nothing unique about the SP89.

One is five grand and thirty years old, the other brand new, under HK warranty, and $1500.

Nobody with any amount of common sense is going to choose the thirty year old gun even if was offered at the same price. Raise the price tag to more than three times as much and it's a joke.

Those who paid that much for the 1980's SP89's will be stuck with them, and they won't be happy about it. Their only recourse is to damage the reputation of the SP5K. You're going to see it happen if the gun shows up here. "I was kind of surprised....these just aren't like they used to be..." It's sooooo predictable. The bizzare thing is - they will be buying them too.

 

And to get back on track... to the OP, Philly, spend a couple hours reading through the pages and pages of posts inthe Clone section. Lots of info there on the MKE guns and how they are made. Lots of varying opinions on them too, as with anything else. But no lack of info either way.

The info you are seeking and asking about is all there for you, it's the current HKPro "horse" that has been beaten - and beaten - and beaten.

 

Oh I have

But my question was a specific one in regards to the licensed claim as opposed to which is better. Anyways, I've own HK as well as PTR and now a MKE that is waiting for tax stamps. So far the MKE has been flawless and can't wait to put a stock and suppressor on it. My PTR91 has also been flawless and have owned it since it was JDL.

Years ago I passed on all the HK 94 that were available because at that time I did not have the money. Something I've always regretted since the MP5 has been my white whale.

 

To me, the MKE, POF, FMP, EBO & other guns are not clones. They are contract guns made with the blessings of HK. A clone gun would describe a JLD/PTR, Vector, or any Todd Bailey gun, which are not made with the blessings of HK. GARY

 

Not contract.

License.

 

Bottom line OP;

If you are on a budget get the Turkish marked HK.

If you have the money get the German marked HK.

Both are mil spec imported guns produced on HK machines.


7n6

 

That's fine and all for the free states, but here in Cali, it is very hard to get a "off-roster" handgun/pistol. As it stands sp89s that are in the state run about 6k, I saw a guy list an Atlantic k clone on Calguns for $3800. The first sp5k in Cali will probably sell for 5k if someone decides to off it. Ive seen a Sig mpx and Cz scorpion go for 3k. So imagine an Hk. Keep in mind used vp9s go for double, used, all day long. And yes I'm stil staying in Cali.

 

Oh great... Another "How great is my MKE/POF vs your gun thread."

 

That's kind of what I thought too.

Meanwhile, I need to go clean my unlicensed mere CLONE garage builder gun and then check it for misaligned sights, out of spec mag well, poor finish, and a bunch of other stuff

Peace out!

 

If you fellas think anything with HK on the side will be priced at $1500 I would say you're delusional, and thats assuming it becomes anything more than an internet rumor.

 

But we can hope, can't we??? LOL. IF they decide to bring them in, they have to price them to move. The VP9 is somewhat proof that they are catching on in that regard.

 

Better late to the party then not coming at all! Unless the party is over and then, oh well, let's hope for some leftovers...

MKE did make them under license for over 35 years. And the blueprints, machines, tools and dies, as well as the QA gages, and the gages to test the gases, and the blueprints to make the gages to test the gages, are all real-deal, Mil-spec, and original. The same Turkish engineers and technicians are there, the same metallurgy, the same procedures. I have seen and met them them all. Does that guarantee perfection? No, if you're in the know then you know that any great gun manufacturer makes a mistrake, we're human. But by and large I will put these up against any.

As for clones, what is a clone? A firearm of reverse-engineered or parts-kit pieces? And does that make them bad? Heck no. Maybe not to spec, but they can be just as good. I prefer to call them "boutique" firearms, and not clones. The final judgment to me is the company and the character of the man (or woman) behind it. That's what counts. I look at our lines or roller-locks (OR roller-delays, whichever you prefer) as family heritage. Parents or grandparents. Cousins or brothers.

As to the pending import, whether or not it occurs is unknown. We won't change much either way. We are importing a great firearm with a great design that I personally believe, IF it was here in the US in great numbers the entire time the AR platform was being improved and developed, it would have superseded it. The roller-lock is a better design IMHO, that just lacked as much modularization. Let's see if we can now change that! Join in, share and fabricate the accessories and components to bring this to its next level!

Thanks!

 

Better late to the party then not coming at all! Unless the party is over and then, oh well, let's hope for some leftovers...

We are importing a great firearm with a great design that I personally believe, IF it was here in the US in great numbers the entire time the AR platform was being improved and developed, it would have superseded it. The roller-lock is a better design IMHO, that just lacked as much modularization. Let's see if we can now change that! Join in, share and fabricate the accessories and components to bring this to its next level!

Thanks!

Apparently you showed up late and very drunk to this party. In what universe would a roller locked sheet metal gun compete with the AR-15/M16 platform? Basic replacement of the barrel can be done with an AR using a couple of hand tools, a couple of specialty tools, and vice. Why, because the basic design is modular. A sheet metal roller locked gun needs a press and a drill press (although an end mill would be better) to change the barrel because the basic design is not modular. Look at the extractor of the roller locked platform. All it takes with a roller locked is one misfed round where the extractor spring is hyper extended and the extractor spring is junk. Not so for the AR design.

Name for me one industrialized nation that uses a roller locked rifle as their issue rifle. For that matter, name for me a Third World country that issues a 5.56X45 roller locked rifle? It is my understanding that Turkey is developing a piston AR similar to the 416. If the roller locked system is so great, why isn't MKE developing a 5.56X45 roller locked instead of a 416 type of rifle? The 416 is based on the AR platform not the roller locked platform. The roller locked system is "dead" technology IMHO. It seems to me HK is still producing the MP5 in limited quantities because the UMP is a poor replacement.

How is the roller locked platform going to be "modernized" by making accessories for a sheet metal gun with a welded in trunnion? So instead of producing the same old sheet metal receiver why doesn't MKE produce a modular aluminum or reinforced polymer receiver with changeable magwells and a quick change barreled trunnion receiver, such that barrel lengths or even better calibers could be changed by the user in the field, like the AR? Fix the extractor spring problem that should have been done in the 60's. I have seen were a US company in now making roller locked bolts with a captured extractor such that the extractor spring can't be hyper extended. Why isn't MKE doing that? Oh and change the charging handle design so a continuous optics rail can be used on the top of the firearm, like most other modern firearms. That would certainly open up the use of day or night distance and CQB optics. The 416 and 417 have such a top rail.

The AR has developed because the platform is flexible and could be developed. A sheet metal roller locked can not be easily developed. So "upgrade" the roller locked receiver and extractor. Then you might have something. But as is, not much can be done to actually "modernize" the platform with "accessories". YMMV.

Scott

 

I love my HK roller locked guns.

I have no illusions about their obsolescence. Let's face it, they're throw backs to the 60s.

That said I'd buy an MKE if it were useable out of the box with a registered sear, or an HK SP5k for $1,500 to keep my SP89/MP5k-N company.

I already have more modern rifles (ARs, PS90, Scar16 and 17, M16a1) and other stuff to play with, but HK is special. Mithril.... I like that word...

 

And you are entitled to your opinion too. You don't have to "modernize" perfection. I'm with hansel; I'll take a delayed blowback over a direct impingement any day. Stoner must have been a stoner to design that clunker.

Zenith, you guy keep doing what you're doing. We love you for it. I already have a bunch of MKE firearms and bought two more in the last month!

 

I love my roller locks, but they are niche and expensive. But i will never get rid of them because they are smooth shooting, iconic looking, and FA capable. However I suggest that there is room for improvement and other firearms, just look at the following sub guns....both are capable guns and cheaper than the best bargain of ANY roller lock I have seen.

mpx = Almost all of the key features that WE HKPRO forum members suggested/asked for in an 50th anniversary mp5. (BHO, monlithic scalloped top rail, user serviceable barrel and caliber changes, paddle and ambi finger mag release, integrally locked and keymod HGs) Of course they didn't get it 100% right though its a cool weapon and a big step forward in the sub gun department.

evo = A cheaper version of the 9mm UMP (without caliber change capability but its light and handles well, and it has cheap hi cap mags). i could do without the right side controls as they dig into you and the perm attached side rails.

We need some of the improvements mentioned found in the mpx to feed back into the mp5 line at its price point. HK can do this, as they found with the VP9/40 they just need to do it! I personally would give up backwards compatibility with mags and accessories/furniture to see this happen.

 

HKs are no more niche than an AK47, the issue is availability. The lack of availability has stifled innovation.

But not every gun needs to be a Swiss army knife. If you only own one firearm then an AR is for you. Most of the so called innovation there is cosmetic. It's only recently that true innovation like the hydra (?) Quick change barrel and magwell, and the Cobalt Kinetics auto mag drop and bolts release have been anything other than name dropping and fluff.

You are 100% correct on the EVO, 20$ mags makes an inferior weapon attractive.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

HKs are no more niche than an AK47, the issue is availability

I disagree, there have been clones for years and years as well as real HKs for anyone that wanted one. The issue here was more price than anything in regards to availability. As for innovation, the community is a fairly purist one and there nothing wrong with that.

The real point here is that it takes a company like HK to set the bar and achieve acceptance for any changes made to the platform they introduced. No clone or boutique builder will get evolutionary/revolutionary changes made and accepted by the community to a platform like the mp5.

 

The AR15 being superior because of the purchasing decisions of world guberment is probably the least valid arguement.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

I don't really see which features you want to bring from the MPX to the MP5. It's a rotating bolt, and I prefer the roller locked. It basically has an AR lower, and that by no means is the best that can be done (kobalt kinetics comes to mind there) the charging handle is AR garbage. The mags are HK expensive. So that leaves light weight, easy barrel swap and availability. Not so impressed.

Now, what if we talked about redesigning the trigger pack for us poor FA searless bastards, strengthening and redesigning the bolt head, redoing the extractor, and bringing down the price of the mother effn mags. Would you consider it?

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

I dont want the mp5 to be an MPX or AR clone, i.e. changing it to use a rotating bolt, gas system, AR lower, or AR style charging handle.

What I said was the HK mp5 and roller lock platform must evolve, and that the key features that the I pointed out early on were: monolithic rail/handguard, an ambi BHO in conjunction with lightweight inexpensive mags, and quick change barrel/caliber system. These features make the system more modular more accessible and more appealing.

Also like you and many others on this forum have pointed out an extractor sprig design/ fix already exists and should be utilized. Also MKE does low cost poly mags so a new mag to support a BHO feature would not be all that expensive manufacture or design as they have a good basis to start from in the ump and mp5-40 mags. The MKE poly mags are what like 30 a pop.

Also the platform needs to come down in price and if that means changing materials and assembly techniques then so be it.

We are not as far apart in our thinking as it seems! :biggrin: