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Modernizing the G3 - HK91 | The Swedish AK4D (HK91-G3 Part 2)
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Yeah, it’s called getting a SCAR or 417 and ditching that fat outdated sow. And this is from someone who owns a real-deal G3.
SCAR’s I assume are not Alber&Duval cannon barrel steel? the m21E FA guys shooting steel case belt fed posting here report 40,000 rounds before rebarreling.
SCARS and FAL’s are not known to be DMR rifles. Cannot in a SHTF event be made FA.
In and end of days event for sure my modded 911. I only have one 7.62x51 rifle so why not improve it?
SCARS and FAL’s are not known to be DMR rifles. Cannot in a SHTF event be made FA.
In and end of days event for sure my modded 911. I only have one 7.62x51 rifle so why not improve it?
Everyone has their preferences, but "to me" the SCAR is the second to last rifle I would take. M14 being dead last. It is the least ergonomic rifle I have ever owned. Again, personal preference. Glad you like them. But maybe you should take a bit of understanding that just because YOU like them, not everyone does, thus to say one should ditch their 91/G3 for a SCAR, yeah well, maybe its not for everyone.
Do any of the Big three rifles have fluted chambers? The fluted chamber in a g-3 will cycle rounds with a broken extractor.
No French cannon barrel steel? Versus less accurate chrome lined barrel. The Austrians i assume knew how to chrome line barrels but chose better steel instead.
i have not seen any posts about chamber erosion in g-3/91’s or barrel replacements.
I was dirt biking in mexico 25 years ago and the mexican soldiers carried bright silver g-3’s. They had used the rifles so much that they had worn the entire finish off the rifles.
the officer in charge said that all the rifles still shot extremely well.
In 1992 WTS told me that they had received hundreds of Mexican g-3 trigger groups for inspection and repair. Denny told me that he put a few springs in a few trigger groups. No other parts were needed.
So the Austrian factory built basically rifles that would not shoot out the barrel and with internal components that were full depth heat treated German steel not surface hardened.
Bill.Springfield mentioned the same thing. None of the then current competitive rifles had more than a fraction of 91’s service life.
If i were to purchase a used Big three rifle i would require an inspection period and would pay for a knowledgeable technician to inspect the rifle for trigger component wear and barrel throat erosion and internal wear.
i would not bother to do any inspection on an Obendorf weapon other than bolt gap.
i would not think that level of reliability was part of the build requirements of the Big three.
10-15k barrel life would be expected from non hk.
when i called hk in Virginia in 1991 I asked about wear out. They laughed and told me to call back after 100k rounds. Word for word thats what im was told.
is that overbuilt design necessary? Maybe not. But the steel instead of aluminum body matches the ultimate reliability in the design. Is it heavier? Is it more durable? Yes also.
No French cannon barrel steel? Versus less accurate chrome lined barrel. The Austrians i assume knew how to chrome line barrels but chose better steel instead.
i have not seen any posts about chamber erosion in g-3/91’s or barrel replacements.
I was dirt biking in mexico 25 years ago and the mexican soldiers carried bright silver g-3’s. They had used the rifles so much that they had worn the entire finish off the rifles.
the officer in charge said that all the rifles still shot extremely well.
In 1992 WTS told me that they had received hundreds of Mexican g-3 trigger groups for inspection and repair. Denny told me that he put a few springs in a few trigger groups. No other parts were needed.
So the Austrian factory built basically rifles that would not shoot out the barrel and with internal components that were full depth heat treated German steel not surface hardened.
Bill.Springfield mentioned the same thing. None of the then current competitive rifles had more than a fraction of 91’s service life.
If i were to purchase a used Big three rifle i would require an inspection period and would pay for a knowledgeable technician to inspect the rifle for trigger component wear and barrel throat erosion and internal wear.
i would not bother to do any inspection on an Obendorf weapon other than bolt gap.
i would not think that level of reliability was part of the build requirements of the Big three.
10-15k barrel life would be expected from non hk.
when i called hk in Virginia in 1991 I asked about wear out. They laughed and told me to call back after 100k rounds. Word for word thats what im was told.
is that overbuilt design necessary? Maybe not. But the steel instead of aluminum body matches the ultimate reliability in the design. Is it heavier? Is it more durable? Yes also.
The fluted chamber (and roller-delay system in general) is overrated and frankly, more annoying than it’s worth. Nobody’s denying the G3 is structurally rugged, but it’s a fat old girl with a lot of annoyances that make it far inferior as a modern fighting rifle to a nice AR10 or SCAR.You can cope and seethe, but it’s a fact. And no amount of welding on rails and slapping on Mlok furniture will change it.
Seethe? Surely you jest. annoyances? Pray tell? I went with Hakan Spuhrs complete set of updates 30 years later. Nothing welded. I can remove everything in minutes and be back to a collapse-able stock, slim forend, iron sighted SEF fully functional 30 round magazine rifle or as posted a DMR weapon with multiple QD sighting systems.
The delayed roller block action seems designed to keep the bolt carrier from moving until the round has left the barrel. Better accuracy.
I passed 30 years ago on a NIB left handed KAC sr-25 for $1000 as it could not be made FA in a end of days scenario.
i live in Kommifornia and my 911 is a Roberti-Ross RAW. None of the big three are readily available here to my knowledge. Plus i am left handed and in think the SCAR‘s stock swings the wrong way for me.
the reason for me to own this is for end of days use. In my location that would and will be a giant earthquake which I experienced as a young boy where I was thrown to the floor and could not stand.
as a young man i went through the original watts riots in LA where the police withdrew and left us on our own.
you could see the city burning off in the distance from signal hill in Long Beach.
so my experiences have me preparing maybe differently from most. I need a weapon that might have to survive collapsed buildings or ran over by heavy vehicles or buried.
yes I know how dramatic of me. Those memories are burned into my brain like yesterday. You were not there.
the area I live in has had 7+ Richter scale earthquakes every 150-200 years going back 1,000 years. Last one was 1812. I can see the destroyed missions dome from my couch.
I reinforced my complete homes structure. Double and tripled beams. 3 freeway lanes and 30 million people who have nothing and will swarm out of the cities…
no compromises. Different idea. Different use. Different area. Different threats
may well require a normally not available here FA 30 caliber weapon system.
i have a ar-15 5.56 rifle also with optional barreled uppers and calibers and sights.
I personally am 6’2“ and 250 and I can handle the size and weight.
Full reloading setup and components For all my stuff including my 9 and 10mm weapons.
i was shot at in watts. Hole in my cars bumper.
Moved out of the big city to the extreme southern end of the la/Orange County complex to where wilderness hills are behind my house. Fairly defensible. House is drywall and stucco. Shoot right through it. Read about Selco in Bosnia during the ethnic cleansing.
Keep a fully stocked 40’ motorhome within walking distance and a 4x4 superduty in my driveway.
maybe i am crazy but then again maybe not.
Damn, that’s a lot of boomer nonsense to read. Maybe move out of Afghanistan, bud. It’s not like you or almost anyone else here will be off rushing to suddenly convert their favorite rifle to FA during whatever fantasy boogaloogarino is TOTALLY gonna happen any day now.
I’m taller, younger and stronger, and I still don’t approve of the weight. I learned pretty quick as a grunt on how important keeping things simple and light are. The G3 has an outdated operating system and sub-per ergos (as much as I do love how it feels). I won’t sell mine, ever, but I’d even reach for my select-fire G36 before the G3, let alone a more modern .308.
If you wanna reach for whatever clone you got, go nuts. But let’s not jerk the platform off too much and pretend that there are some pretty nice advantages to having a lighter, more modern, more ergonomic rifle. It’s not 1964 anymore.
I’m taller, younger and stronger, and I still don’t approve of the weight. I learned pretty quick as a grunt on how important keeping things simple and light are. The G3 has an outdated operating system and sub-per ergos (as much as I do love how it feels). I won’t sell mine, ever, but I’d even reach for my select-fire G36 before the G3, let alone a more modern .308.
If you wanna reach for whatever clone you got, go nuts. But let’s not jerk the platform off too much and pretend that there are some pretty nice advantages to having a lighter, more modern, more ergonomic rifle. It’s not 1964 anymore.
As for the super-duper-fancy CaNnOn StEeL, let’s not pretend the minor increase in accuracy is something almost anyone is going to notice outside of the more autistic types of shooter-collectors. And ok, the SCAR or your nice AR-10 has a lower barrel life? Big whoop. Much easier to swap on those vs an G3 pattern. Extra nice if you want to go shorter too. But again, not a lot of people here are seriously burning out barrels, outside of the more dedicated ones.
I get that there’s some weird emotional attachment going on here, but only a real mouthbreather could look at something like a G3 (or any of the Big Three) and then a nice 417 or SCAR 17 or other nice modern battle rifle build and not recognize how mid-tier the former are in comparison, no matter what fancy furniture you slap on. Get over it, bud. I love my M14, G3 and FAL, but get with it.
I get that there’s some weird emotional attachment going on here, but only a real mouthbreather could look at something like a G3 (or any of the Big Three) and then a nice 417 or SCAR 17 or other nice modern battle rifle build and not recognize how mid-tier the former are in comparison, no matter what fancy furniture you slap on. Get over it, bud. I love my M14, G3 and FAL, but get with it.
Now. I am done listening to this incessant Boomer drivel. No, slapping some goofy furniture on a PTR (lmao) does not bring it instantly up to par with any number of better, more modern options, and anyone who thinks so is a fool. I have the real deal. It’s one of my favorite guns. But it is never going to stack up, and that’s FINE. Accept it for what it is, an outdated but fun a sexy old battle rifle.
Denny of WTS mentioned that the FAL’s triggers would start to show trigger component wear at less than 2k rounds. Surface heat treating of poorer quality metal. Most of the comparable rifles showed accelerated wear versus near zero on an hk. If you do a trigger job on those you break through the surface heat treating exposing the softer underlying metal.
Boomer? Is that a cut? Like who does your hair? I would not own a PTR, just me. they do not use nor does anyone else us Albert & Duval cannon barrel steel that I am aware of.
My ar requires a special tool that inserts through the breech and engages the barrels chamber directly when replacing the muzzle brake or flash suppressor as sometimes the force needed can twist the body of the rifle permanently.
i can envision future societal changes where access to replacement gun parts would be tracked from digital currency use and disallowed.
My registered assault weapon in CA cannot be inherited. Must leave the state. Soi paid twice for the registration in 1990 and had the same 911(not PTR) registered to my son at the same time as his drivers license address matched mine at the time. Finger printed to have a RAW in California.
if someone made a newer weapon system with better ergonomics made out of steel maybe I would be interested.
Oh Spuhr basically did address the ergonomics issue did he not.
I have a left handed cocking tube also and a FBI steel ambi selector lever and a palm rest grip with finger grooves.
not much ergo‘s left. I can make my 911 into a g-3 easily if wanted. 11 pound no firing if dropped or change the trigger group to either a bill Springfield 4.5 pound SEF or a WTS set trigger like the virgina hk guys all had.
unlike others Denny did not break through the heat treating on the hk trigger parts. Just polished them.
the Portuguese had Spuhr install a brass part in the buttstock to allow the cheek riser to be snapped off without tools which then allows proper cheek weld to use iron sights.
all my 4 different optics are all QD either from using ARM’s #63 mounts or like the Vortex holo sight and there 6x flip magnifier have internal QD bases.
And the optics are interchangeable with my AR-15. That is my lighter quicker handling choice. Three different top receivers for that including 300 BO.
I have a spare barrel for my hk also and both bolt carriers and a tungsten bolt carrier if needed and a practice ammo bolt and several thousands rounds of plastic ammo.
oh and I’m really like my g-3 subcaliber 22 kit. extremely accurate. Versus my pallet of excellent Portuguese m80 Nato purchased at Y2K for 15.9 cents per round the 22 is a 10 cent per round for Tenex ammo.
the hk subcaliber kit also can run FA if used where legal.
only interested in no compromises hk quality. used 40 year old 91’s sell for the same money as a new MR 762. Which weighs roughly the same as a 91. And is very accurate.
I’ purchased a star barreled m25 m14 long ago then had it NM tuned. Shot well but optics were a problem and it could not be made FA and the Barrels throat eroded after extended use.
My rare 1 in 11” twist 911 out shot it. so I sold it.
So no FA capabilities on the others. No practice ammo. No subcaliber kits. Limited or No set triggers. No trigger work without breaking through the surface hardened heat treating. No cannon barrel steel.
the Ruger new 308 rifle had me Interested but is seems to be a 2MOA rifle with match ammo.
The KAC sr-25 I passed on easily shot less than MOA. But no interchange able system of add-ons and no FA and no 22 kit or practice ammo.
MR 762 if the BRUEN decision frees up us in California.
I have front and rear atlas bipod mounts on the Spuhr forearm plus the hk wide forearm and bipod.
plus I sourced the PSGI‘s adjustable bipod if needed. really high quality, beautifully made.
Sorry for the long post.
Boomer? Is that a cut? Like who does your hair? I would not own a PTR, just me. they do not use nor does anyone else us Albert & Duval cannon barrel steel that I am aware of.
My ar requires a special tool that inserts through the breech and engages the barrels chamber directly when replacing the muzzle brake or flash suppressor as sometimes the force needed can twist the body of the rifle permanently.
i can envision future societal changes where access to replacement gun parts would be tracked from digital currency use and disallowed.
My registered assault weapon in CA cannot be inherited. Must leave the state. Soi paid twice for the registration in 1990 and had the same 911(not PTR) registered to my son at the same time as his drivers license address matched mine at the time. Finger printed to have a RAW in California.
if someone made a newer weapon system with better ergonomics made out of steel maybe I would be interested.
Oh Spuhr basically did address the ergonomics issue did he not.
I have a left handed cocking tube also and a FBI steel ambi selector lever and a palm rest grip with finger grooves.
not much ergo‘s left. I can make my 911 into a g-3 easily if wanted. 11 pound no firing if dropped or change the trigger group to either a bill Springfield 4.5 pound SEF or a WTS set trigger like the virgina hk guys all had.
unlike others Denny did not break through the heat treating on the hk trigger parts. Just polished them.
the Portuguese had Spuhr install a brass part in the buttstock to allow the cheek riser to be snapped off without tools which then allows proper cheek weld to use iron sights.
all my 4 different optics are all QD either from using ARM’s #63 mounts or like the Vortex holo sight and there 6x flip magnifier have internal QD bases.
And the optics are interchangeable with my AR-15. That is my lighter quicker handling choice. Three different top receivers for that including 300 BO.
I have a spare barrel for my hk also and both bolt carriers and a tungsten bolt carrier if needed and a practice ammo bolt and several thousands rounds of plastic ammo.
oh and I’m really like my g-3 subcaliber 22 kit. extremely accurate. Versus my pallet of excellent Portuguese m80 Nato purchased at Y2K for 15.9 cents per round the 22 is a 10 cent per round for Tenex ammo.
the hk subcaliber kit also can run FA if used where legal.
only interested in no compromises hk quality. used 40 year old 91’s sell for the same money as a new MR 762. Which weighs roughly the same as a 91. And is very accurate.
I’ purchased a star barreled m25 m14 long ago then had it NM tuned. Shot well but optics were a problem and it could not be made FA and the Barrels throat eroded after extended use.
My rare 1 in 11” twist 911 out shot it. so I sold it.
So no FA capabilities on the others. No practice ammo. No subcaliber kits. Limited or No set triggers. No trigger work without breaking through the surface hardened heat treating. No cannon barrel steel.
the Ruger new 308 rifle had me Interested but is seems to be a 2MOA rifle with match ammo.
The KAC sr-25 I passed on easily shot less than MOA. But no interchange able system of add-ons and no FA and no 22 kit or practice ammo.
MR 762 if the BRUEN decision frees up us in California.
I have front and rear atlas bipod mounts on the Spuhr forearm plus the hk wide forearm and bipod.
plus I sourced the PSGI‘s adjustable bipod if needed. really high quality, beautifully made.
Sorry for the long post.
Good points. the idea in a SHTF end of days setting someone with hand tools and a few specific parts can make 91 into a g-3 is a point to consider. As was stated and proven all over the world by many long term users “you cannot wear out a 91/g-3 rifle.“ bad for arms sellers as they complain that that kills the replacement business from use and wearing out.
the idea that a 91 could be almost a forever weapon is unique. When I bought my 911 I called Virginia with a few questions and when I asked about service life they told me to check back after 100k rounds.
the idea that a 91 could be almost a forever weapon is unique. When I bought my 911 I called Virginia with a few questions and when I asked about service life they told me to check back after 100k rounds.
The extremely high resale value of any Austrian g-3/91 is an obvious testament to not being able to wear it out shooting 30 caliber ammo. I own an ar-15 also. 10k-15k round weapon barrel life. Trigger parts surface heat treated not full depth same as FN-FAL according to Denny at WTS. 2K rounds would start to show wear after trigger work as he had to break through the surface heat treating according to him. Hk use of Albert&Duval steel and full depth heat treating is rare if not unique.
As was posted the Cold War idea of issuing a rifle that was designed to never need support or parts is not the current norm. Over long long term and heavy use most of the current rifles will be worn out.
versus old 98 Mausers that still are serviceable.
recent bullet changes from Sierra and others that went to 169 grain better ballistics results in a supersonic 1,000 meter cartridge extending the m80 600 yard range supersonic.
the more modern offering cannot be made FA if one was so inclined. My trust level is near zero. We well may need to water the tree of liberty again. A 30 caliber FA accurate weapon would be a giant plus. Seems the military is going towards every rifleman having a FA capable rifle that’s accurate to 1,000 meters with at least a 20 round clip that can penetrate body armor.
gee I have one now. Plus needs no support. I have full spares also. Plus reloading equipment.
yes my ar-15 is lighter. Good room clearing weapon. I bought a tool for it that locks into the barrels bolt recesses directly to remove an over tightened flashhider as gripping the rifles action with a vice mount can result in the receiver itself twisting permanently during the flash hiders removal.
As was posted the Cold War idea of issuing a rifle that was designed to never need support or parts is not the current norm. Over long long term and heavy use most of the current rifles will be worn out.
versus old 98 Mausers that still are serviceable.
recent bullet changes from Sierra and others that went to 169 grain better ballistics results in a supersonic 1,000 meter cartridge extending the m80 600 yard range supersonic.
the more modern offering cannot be made FA if one was so inclined. My trust level is near zero. We well may need to water the tree of liberty again. A 30 caliber FA accurate weapon would be a giant plus. Seems the military is going towards every rifleman having a FA capable rifle that’s accurate to 1,000 meters with at least a 20 round clip that can penetrate body armor.
gee I have one now. Plus needs no support. I have full spares also. Plus reloading equipment.
yes my ar-15 is lighter. Good room clearing weapon. I bought a tool for it that locks into the barrels bolt recesses directly to remove an over tightened flashhider as gripping the rifles action with a vice mount can result in the receiver itself twisting permanently during the flash hiders removal.
The latest follow-up.
.
For $4,000 one can buy two PTR-91 and add some things.
Everyone may want an HK-91, but supply limited.
And “collectors” — speculators — who artificially increase the price. Muh money! is the character précis. Kinda like the way the hedge funds are buying up every house in USA driving prices sky-high. No average man can any longer afford them. Great company to keep! (By their fruits shall ye know them).
Picatinny rail on new (plus barrel twist rate) and ability to swap in parts from any source argues towards efficient use of funds vs “authentic” for most men.
I’d bet most enthusiasts with PTR-91 have modded or swapped at least one item. Why not? As modularity extends through-out.
$4k is a number to kit out the rifle & rifleman.
Can’t leave out formal tests in becoming proficient.
Need to send Josh this reminder that, The Vorgrimler Special, ain’t “slow”. In another vid Jerry admits that even he can’t keep up with the speed of the roller-delay action.
(4) rounds on (2) targets in 8/10’s second?
Okay.
“Modernize”, is in maintaining desired sight picture thru multiple rounds. Modern optic to aid the reach out past 300M.
.
.
For $4,000 one can buy two PTR-91 and add some things.
Everyone may want an HK-91, but supply limited.
And “collectors” — speculators — who artificially increase the price. Muh money! is the character précis. Kinda like the way the hedge funds are buying up every house in USA driving prices sky-high. No average man can any longer afford them. Great company to keep! (By their fruits shall ye know them).
Picatinny rail on new (plus barrel twist rate) and ability to swap in parts from any source argues towards efficient use of funds vs “authentic” for most men.
I’d bet most enthusiasts with PTR-91 have modded or swapped at least one item. Why not? As modularity extends through-out.
$4k is a number to kit out the rifle & rifleman.
Can’t leave out formal tests in becoming proficient.
Need to send Josh this reminder that, The Vorgrimler Special, ain’t “slow”. In another vid Jerry admits that even he can’t keep up with the speed of the roller-delay action.
(4) rounds on (2) targets in 8/10’s second?
Okay.
“Modernize”, is in maintaining desired sight picture thru multiple rounds. Modern optic to aid the reach out past 300M.
.
No mention I have seen that anyone uses the hk Albert&Duval sourced steel. “German steel” I have seen mentioned whatever that is? “HK drawings, HK tooling” is mentioned. My experience in other products is that tooling wears and tolerances open up.
HK states that they do several steps in construction that are proprietary . Not passed on to licensees?
the logical step to me is to cyrotreat the parts before assembly. Rearranges the molecules in the metal. Some add rf to the parts while cycling.
will a ptr give good life? Probably 10-15k rounds like most rifles. Hardly seen any roller dents reported on original HK receivers. I am thinking stronger steel.
would I buy a Ptr? I might but I would test it then depending on accuracy I would probable change the barrel out to others I have sourced.
the Ptr seems to be MOM accurate to 600 yards or so so probably more than good for most uses and users.
not a DMR that I have seen. Match ammo reports of 1.2” to 1.5” groups at 100 meters.
they seem to have a certain amount of issues new. HK’s? Never.
if I bought an .308 chambered 91 I probably would change out the barrel to the later ones I have here and keep the original for eternal use.
trigger seems to be all hk/ptr holdbacks. Trigger specialties would be a for sure.
versus no 91 I would have a ptr if that was your budget and needs
HK states that they do several steps in construction that are proprietary . Not passed on to licensees?
the logical step to me is to cyrotreat the parts before assembly. Rearranges the molecules in the metal. Some add rf to the parts while cycling.
will a ptr give good life? Probably 10-15k rounds like most rifles. Hardly seen any roller dents reported on original HK receivers. I am thinking stronger steel.
would I buy a Ptr? I might but I would test it then depending on accuracy I would probable change the barrel out to others I have sourced.
the Ptr seems to be MOM accurate to 600 yards or so so probably more than good for most uses and users.
not a DMR that I have seen. Match ammo reports of 1.2” to 1.5” groups at 100 meters.
they seem to have a certain amount of issues new. HK’s? Never.
if I bought an .308 chambered 91 I probably would change out the barrel to the later ones I have here and keep the original for eternal use.
trigger seems to be all hk/ptr holdbacks. Trigger specialties would be a for sure.
versus no 91 I would have a ptr if that was your budget and needs
You surely ain't no rocket scientist either.
It wasn't the norm during the Cold War era either, ask any Bundeswehr armorer familiar with the G3...
Then it's better you don't know what one of the "favorite" pasttimes of Bundeswehr unit armorers was dealing with the G3 in conscript service.
Yeah, those never ever needed parts and service...
...this is why there are no armorers boxed and parts kits for them, right? Oh, wait...
Then should I start deleting posts that contain 99% BS that hasn't anything to do with that topic?
Or can you let the weed be for a while and stop your incoherent ranting?
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