[gator33]

Those are still machine guns by the ATF’s definition, as you’d only need to swap in a 3 position safety selector to make it a machine gun.

That's a good point, but mechanically, all they would need is a couple of semi-only operating components and some modified receiver geometry and it would be good to go.
I have no idea where they are in the process, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the plans were already drawn up and it's just a bunch of IP/legal hurdles to cross.

 

[RetropM]

I wish they would do the 433/437 instead of the G36.

That's a long way down the road, if it ever happens.

 

[asillasitgets]

That's a good point, but mechanically, all they would need is a couple of semi-only operating components and some modified receiver geometry and it would be good to go.
I have no idea where they are in the process, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the plans were already drawn up and it's just a bunch of IP/legal hurdles to cross.

It’s a little more complicated than that. The MP7 has two sears in its design that it uses for both semi-auto and full-auto. The ATF will not approve a design with two sears. Additionally it needs to be not readily convertible to full-auto. So that’s a redesign of the bolt carrier and/or the receiver to prevent the installation of full-auto components like the selector, factory full-auto fire control tray, and how the fire control system functions etc. It’s not a complete redesign of the gun because the barrel, gas system, magazine, general form factor and exterior characteristics don’t need to necessarily change, but there is significant engineering involved in making a semi-auto only MP7 that would gain ATF approval. It’s not easy, just ask Tom Bostic.

 

[JoshNC]

The handguard barrel issue is old, it's resolved now, and by the way, how can you complain about front heavy spear if we are comparing with the hk mr556 who is way front havier and way havier in general!

By the way, a lot of SPecial forces are switching from 416 to speat lt, SAS, italian special forces in primis!

It’s actually not resolved at all. The only resolution for the spear L is the Arisaka Defense clamp.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

Now to chime in, whatever it's deficiencies (real or imagined), at least for that $3800 MSRP you know for damn sure you're getting a rifle that will work when you need or want it to. I'm betting that a lot of the SOF armed forces or police units that are adopting Sig MCXs will probably fairly quickly find out why other organizations ditched them. The one that I know the most about is Schwesleg-Holstein's state police dept. in Germany bought HK437s, initially to partly replace MP5s that they were getting ready to mothball a lot of (seen as obsolescent for their line of work). But that was for 200 HK437s, which got bumped up to 500 to also replace most of their Sig MCXs that were having a ton of problems--including shot out barrels and other durability/reliability issues. Not to mention that Sig Germany is no more, Sig USA has proven for that dept. to be crap at support, and Sig Switzerland probably doesn't actively support (nor care) about Sig USA firearms.

And yes, Luke and Ortmeier own both Sig Switzerland and Sig USA, but are treated by and large as basically two separate companies/two separate arms of the same firm. Just because they have the same owners/same parent company, doesn't mean that the companies' standards and such are the same.

And HKPRO's video of the MCX's going down for seemingly no good reason during a shootout with an armed suspect doesn't inspire confidence, either.

Enough Sig USA bashing (aside from stating we have a cat named Sig that we believe is "defective"--he'll only let people baby hold him instead of holding him like, you know, a cat). And I, like others, are curious about HK USA's decision to no chrome line the MR556's barrels in spite of it being an in-demand feature. But at the end of the day, is that even a huge mark against it? If one, the barrel (which is still CHF) will last at least 10-12K rounds before suffering performance loss and two, HK USA agreeing to replace it under warranty for little or no charge. I myself (who would prefer CL to make it more like the MR223 and the HK416 itself from a replica standpoint) don't really see the big issue at this point.

And yes, overall, people are divided about HK USA so far with what they're doing with their new products (though the CC9 has generally been favorably received). But just because James got hired in and they've made more movement as far as personnel shake ups and products the past few months than in the past decade, don't expect change to totally come overnight.

And in all due respect, J-B Koch (HK's current CEO) does want to push more into the NA market on the commercial front. But that has to be tempered with: 1; HK overall only came solidly back into profitability a few years ago. 2; that was largely on the back of armed forces and LE sales. 3; HK as a big time gun maker has a facility that's only a fraction of the size of say FN's plant in Belgium or FN America's plant in South Carolina. 4; speaking of size, HK USA's main facility right now itself is a fraction of the size of HK's main plant in Oberdorf. And 5; HK, much like the aforementioned FN is a defense company. That's what for HK and FN not only puts bread on their table, but butters that bread. When we do get cool civvie stuff from that, that's the result of that buttered bread being in abundance. Civvie sales supplment their income, though it can be argue that neither FN or HK really need it right now--as pointed out, FN sells almost nothing to civilians in the EU aside from Browning and Winchester Fudd guns because that's their current policy. So if you want a SCAR or a FN made AR-15, you'll have to import it yourself from FNA in SC.

And in addition, I've been told that J-B Koch, nor most others at HK Germany, have no direct oversight at what goes on at HK USA--that's mostly down to HK Germany's board of directors.

I do think that some of us do need to temper expectations a bit as far as what we wish for and what we know we're likely to get. Namely don't be so dissapointed or upset when something comes out that's not 100% what you want. Even HK can't please everyone off the rack.

 

[Romanesq]

 

[German]

Moderator notice: Parallel TFBTv Review Thread crosslinked to this thread and closed.

 

[German]

the A4 release would've been the first time an American market HK product is actually superior to its European market counterparts.

Can't have that, now. Can we?

 

[German]

Also in regards to the MP7, HK already has a semi auto only MP7 that they sell to British law enforcement?

Those are still machine guns by the ATF’s definition, as you’d only need to swap in a 3 position safety selector to make it a machine gun.

And they are considered "Weapons of War" in Germany.

 

[German]

If I was a betting man

Hmmmm... what a bummer you are not.

 

[German]

Schwesleg-Holstein

😅

It's Schleswig-Holstein. 😉

to partly replace MP5s that they were getting ready to mothball a lot of (seen as obsolescent for their line of work).

Actually I think you can expect to still see the MP5 in S-H for a long time.
It's not obsolescent but simply getting old (most of these guns are older than the officers that carry them, some even twice as old...) and it doesn't really make sense to replace them with new ones if you have identified additional needs that might need another weapon. The MP5 is still a valid choice for 99% of the Police work done in Germany. The HK437 is for that other 1% of situations.

At some point in the future all the MP5s will be replaced. But I am quite convinced that this point is at least a decade from now.

 

[StefanoMapo]

Now to chime in, whatever it's deficiencies (real or imagined), at least for that $3800 MSRP you know for damn sure you're getting a rifle that will work when you need or want it to. I'm betting that a lot of the SOF armed forces or police units that are adopting Sig MCXs will probably fairly quickly find out why other organizations ditched them. The one that I know the most about is Schwesleg-Holstein's state police dept. in Germany bought HK437s, initially to partly replace MP5s that they were getting ready to mothball a lot of (seen as obsolescent for their line of work). But that was for 200 HK437s, which got bumped up to 500 to also replace most of their Sig MCXs that were having a ton of problems--including shot out barrels and other durability/reliability issues. Not to mention that Sig Germany is no more, Sig USA has proven for that dept. to be crap at support, and Sig Switzerland probably doesn't actively support (nor care) about Sig USA firearms.

And yes, Luke and Ortmeier own both Sig Switzerland and Sig USA, but are treated by and large as basically two separate companies/two separate arms of the same firm. Just because they have the same owners/same parent company, doesn't mean that the companies' standards and such are the same.

And HKPRO's video of the MCX's going down for seemingly no good reason during a shootout with an armed suspect doesn't inspire confidence, either.

Enough Sig USA bashing (aside from stating we have a cat named Sig that we believe is "defective"--he'll only let people baby hold him instead of holding him like, you know, a cat). And I, like others, are curious about HK USA's decision to no chrome line the MR556's barrels in spite of it being an in-demand feature. But at the end of the day, is that even a huge mark against it? If one, the barrel (which is still CHF) will last at least 10-12K rounds before suffering performance loss and two, HK USA agreeing to replace it under warranty for little or no charge. I myself (who would prefer CL to make it more like the MR223 and the HK416 itself from a replica standpoint) don't really see the big issue at this point.

And yes, overall, people are divided about HK USA so far with what they're doing with their new products (though the CC9 has generally been favorably received). But just because James got hired in and they've made more movement as far as personnel shake ups and products the past few months than in the past decade, don't expect change to totally come overnight.

And in all due respect, J-B Koch (HK's current CEO) does want to push more into the NA market on the commercial front. But that has to be tempered with: 1; HK overall only came solidly back into profitability a few years ago. 2; that was largely on the back of armed forces and LE sales. 3; HK as a big time gun maker has a facility that's only a fraction of the size of say FN's plant in Belgium or FN America's plant in South Carolina. 4; speaking of size, HK USA's main facility right now itself is a fraction of the size of HK's main plant in Oberdorf. And 5; HK, much like the aforementioned FN is a defense company. That's what for HK and FN not only puts bread on their table, but butters that bread. When we do get cool civvie stuff from that, that's the result of that buttered bread being in abundance. Civvie sales supplment their income, though it can be argue that neither FN or HK really need it right now--as pointed out, FN sells almost nothing to civilians in the EU aside from Browning and Winchester Fudd guns because that's their current policy. So if you want a SCAR or a FN made AR-15, you'll have to import it yourself from FNA in SC.

And in addition, I've been told that J-B Koch, nor most others at HK Germany, have no direct oversight at what goes on at HK USA--that's mostly down to HK Germany's board of directors.

I do think that some of us do need to temper expectations a bit as far as what we wish for and what we know we're likely to get. Namely don't be so dissapointed or upset when something comes out that's not 100% what you want. Even HK can't please everyone off the rack.

I understand that talking about sig here is like talking about Lamborghini in a Ferrari forum, but all what you say (that they are not reliable that they break...) is nonsense. The official data and information say otherwise, Special forces (who rarely change armaments and only after years of testing) are moving from the 416 to the Spear Lt, you can see for yourself, from the SAS, from the French paratroopers to the Italian ones, I can tell you that they choose the best on the market, and they adopt them only when they are 100% sure of their potential, they cannot afford to use them and then change their mind. The 416 is much heavier and does not allow the stock to be knocked down, something that is requested above all by the paratroopers, for the rest they are two excellent weapons, of course, the civilian spear is exactly the same as the military spear, with Hk unfortunately we civilians have to limit ourselves to the castrated versions (even here in Europe).
For the rest I think that both are equivalent, only that one is much more modern, interchangeable barrel, light, folding stock... the other is just a piston-operated AR, which has made history in the operational area of the last 15-20 years.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

In response to German's post: very true, but if that order for 500 437s is going to be split between 200 worn out MP5s (and yes, I'm well aware of why the MP5 is the only roller delayed weapon that HK still mass produces--it's called the standard for a reason, probably numerous ones in fact), and the MCXs, that still leaves between 200-250 MCXs in inventory as of now on those numbers. Unless the order was for 500 437s on top of the 200 already ordered. Either way, Schleswig-Holstein PD does have an option over the next couple of years to buy as many as 1600 total 437s or a mix of 437s and 433s (though some will be just for instructional and training purposes). I just have pity for those who might still have to use a MCX until then (I'd prefer a worn out MP5 at that point it seems).

Yeah, my opinion of the MCX or most Sig USA products isn't very high. But the preponderance of horror stories of junk products and customers basically becoming beta testers, and reports from how their stuff is made and assembled isn't confidence inspiring. Not to mention the P320 discharge incidents. Right now, if you say you have a good Sig, all I can say is, one it was made either in Germany or Switzerland, two, you got lucky, three, you are or know a good gunsmith, or four, yeah, and I slept with Victoria Justice (chick in my avatar) last night--which everyone here ought to know is a lie, which probably doesn't say much about the guy with the Sig if numbers 1-3 don't apply.

I mean for example, my younger brother uses a Sig 938 as his CCW pistol. Never had a problem with it and does what he wants it to do. But he and my father went over that thing with a fine tooth comb, and my brother treats it as if it's his first born child. But he's mechanically inclined, so is my father on top of being a gunsmith. Not to mention that thing does fire some pretty hot stuff that my father also handloads--as in "have you heard of a 9mm Luger that's more like a .357 Magnum" type stuff. 147+ grain 9mm at 1400 fps from that short a barrel isn't something to laugh at.

 

[German]

but all what you say (that they are not reliable that they break...) is nonsense.

It is not.

Special forces (who rarely change armaments and only after years of testing) are moving from the 416 to the Spear Lt, you can see for yourself, from the SAS, from the French paratroopers to the Italian ones

That's three out of... how many?

And Paratroopers are not Special Forces.

, I can tell you that they choose the best on the market, and they adopt them only when they are 100% sure of their potential, they cannot afford to use them and then change their mind.

Well, the SAS also used the SA80 at some point...

The 416 is much heavier

Even with light profile barrels which are available to those MIL and LE entities that request them?
Don't think so.

 

[Anieb006]

And they are considered "Weapons of War" in Germany.

If it’s a semi auto made in the US, would that make it a weapon of war in Germany?

 

[gator33]

And Paratroopers are not Special Forces.

Saving this for the my U.S. Army friends on this board

 

[plaidsteel]

...Additionally it needs to be not readily convertible to full-auto. So that’s a redesign of the bolt carrier and/or the receiver to prevent the installation of full-auto components like the selector, factory full-auto fire control tray, and how the fire control system functions etc.

Genuine question - does anyone know what the ATF means by "readily" means? Or, is it a "we'll (ATF) let you know if you've crossed the line with your product" situation?

I'm understanding (hopefully correctly) that German laws call for certain design changes on the firearm (to prevent FA) according to a previous post in this thread, so I'm not wondering about that aspect.

Just seeking information.

 

[German]

If it’s a semi auto made in the US, would that make it a weapon of war in Germany?

Yes, it would. Semi auto FN SCAR 16S and 17S are also Weapons of War in Germany.

But that's not the point. Nobody confirmed that any civilian MP7/SP7 will be made in the US, or did anybody?

 

[asillasitgets]

Genuine question - does anyone know what the ATF means by "readily" means? Or, is it a "we'll (ATF) let you know if you've crossed the line with your product" situation?

Unfortunately it’s the latter, where the ATF Firearms Technology branch makes a decision based on a sample that has been provided by the manufacturer or importer.

I'm understanding (hopefully correctly) that German laws call for certain design changes on the firearm (to prevent FA) according to a previous post in this thread, so I'm not wondering about that aspect.

Yes, both Germany and the US each have their own laws/requirements that cause manufacturers to make their guns not function as machine guns.

Saving this for the my U.S. Army friends on this board

I don’t believe he’s trying to insult any paratroopers. While they are specialized as airborne infantry, they are not considered special forces. Their role aligns more closely with conventional forces than with special operations units, as does their equipment.

But that's not the point. Nobody confirmed that any civilian MP7/SP7 will be made in the US, or did anybody?

James Reeves mentioned US production of a civilian MP7 in his video, but I don’t take that as a credible source on the matter. I’d say it’s speculation at this point.

 

[madangler1]

I said it once, I will say it again. The MR556A4 is a no go for me until they give us the appropriate spec Hk416 chrome lined barrels. I rather use the $3900 towards a Geissele MRGG or Mod 1, more Daniel Defense rifles, etc. I like James Reeves, but he took their propaganda hook, line and sinker. I call B.S. on the claims regarding barrel life unless they nitrided the barrels. I will patiently await an IWI Arad upper and forget about HK altogether (unless they send us UMP 9 pistols).

Also, Sig USA sucks. I love my Swiss Sig 55x’s.