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Don’t mean to sidetrack this thread, but with the talk of the CC9’s width, how much does that make a difference for you all? Particularly aiwb

Say something like a G26 at 1.25” vs 1” width of the micros, are they that much more comfortable/easier to carry in a tshirt? Or just slightly? Thanks everyone, will pick up the CC9 regardless
For me, yes the thickness makes a difference. I carry a P2000SK instead of the P30SK because the P2000SK is thinner.
 
Actually, it's the first third of October. Mid-October is next week. And the announcement was "between mid-October and...". So nothing was "promised" for the 11th of October or on the 15th of October.

What was said was:

View attachment 444208


Anyway, after clarifying that:



Here it is:



That's what "introduce" means.


Besides that:




And if you're really, really special:


So there is a slight chance that the CC9 might hit the shelves rather soon after the 15th. Or not.
My LGS said they expect to have them on the shelf the first week of November.
 
Don’t mean to sidetrack this thread, but with the talk of the CC9’s width, how much does that make a difference for you all? Particularly aiwb
For me, yes the thickness makes a difference.
I fully agree.

I carry AIWB in a professional capacity in what you Americans would term a "Nonpermissive Environment" and - depending on external circumstances like weather and social occasion - there is a noticecable difference between say a Glock 26 and Glock 43 when there isn't much leeway regarding cover garment.

If you carry "Hey, I'm CCW'ing"-clothing anyways, that might not matter as much, and then the VP9 might also be an option, but there are use cases where it isn't.
Thus the SFP9CC for LE/MIL from HKO, because their professional customers noticed that as well. How surprising, eh?
 
I fully agree.

I carry AIWB in a professional capacity in what you Americans would term a "Nonpermissive Environment" and - depending on external circumstances like weather and social occasion - there is a noticecable difference between say a Glock 26 and Glock 43 when there isn't much leeway regarding cover garment.

If you carry "Hey, I'm CCW'ing"-clothing anyways, that might not matter as much, and then the VP9 might also be an option, but there are use cases where it isn't.
Thus the SFP9CC for LE/MIL from HKO, because their professional customers noticed that as well. How surprising, eh?
Some people refuse to believe that this isn’t the ideal year-round attire for concealed carry. Like if you need a micro-compact, are you even trying to dress around the gun?

Image
 
So you say your reasoning is based on a wrong assumption? That somewhat makes sense, reading that part of the discussion.



Because the only "Practial" that's to be found in these competitions is the "P" that is somewhere in that acronym.
Other than that it's just gaming and outgaming others in a fixed set of rules and regulations. Any resemblance of "Practicality" is long gone there.



A serious shooter or a serious gamer?

A serious professional would tell you: "It depends" - on a variety of circumstances.



Because there is a difference between "gaming", "carrying" and "professional use".

Just as there is a difference in various carry environments, carry justifications and climatic conditions.



And none of these fancy drills produces any relevant evidence that this will make any discernible difference in a real life firearms use.

So it's just proof that you are stuck in your narrow-minded corner of gun-ownership and -use and are not able to see - or understand - the whole picture. Which is fine. Because it doesn't matter if you do or don't.
My point in this was the hypocrisy that the US shooter wants the largest and heaviest pistol for competition, yet where it matters most, they want the smallest and lightest pistol.

We can debate the merits of micro pistols but what is not debatable is the skills involved in successful action pistol competition. Keep in mind that when US SOCOM units want pistol instruction, they hire IPSC, USPSA champions such as Ben Stoeger and Robert Vogel to teach them.

Shooting drills don’t have relevance in real firearms use? Then what should one use to measure the shootability of firearms and/or the progression of their skills? A shot timer does not lie. Drills provide a measurable metric to gauge and track progress, that is not based on “feelings.”

And while these drills are not “real life” they certainly develop and measure gun handling and marksmanship skills.
 
Just out of curiosity, is the desire for the SFP9 Match coming from the “SFP” markings or the cool new Jet Funnel and magazines? If it’s the latter, I’m very optimistic that future shipments of the VP9 Match (which is German-proofed, and therefore German-assembled) will also have these features.
@asillasitgets has mentioned the differences but I did want to add this. I spoke to HK representatives in Germany and they have stated that the SFP9 Match Jet funnel will not be coming to the US; not on the VP9 Match nor as an accessory.
 
I think HK USA will import it, or import parts and manufacture others if necessary, to offer the SFP9CC US equivalent.

I don’t think you know what the importers on this site will or won’t try regarding the SFP9 Match. I also don’t think you know how the ATF will view an SFP9CC equivalent.
I don't? Have a look here. https://www.hkpro.com/threads/close...8a1-p10-p12-usp45ct-the-sfp9-family.546585/page-11?post_id=4075390#post-4075390

PEW group intended to import the SFP9 Match and deliver by the end of 2022.


I think you’re missing the point.

People don’t carry micro pistols because they’re the best pistols. People carry them because they’re small, light, and comfortable. The best carry gun is the one you will actually carry every day. Nobody is arguing that a micro 9 is going to outclass a bunch of duty or competition guns. But most people aren’t going to concealed carry a steel-frame 1911 or CZ, regardless of its performance in a series of competition-focused drills.

There is no perfect firearm, only trade-offs depending on the situation, circumstance, or environment you find yourself in. If you can’t understand why micro pistols are popular, you’re blind. This is coming from someone who doesn’t own a micro pistol.
Now something we can agree on. A micro pistol is for someone who wants to compromise, and that all weapons produce some degree of compromise.
Lastly, how do you know that I don't own a micro pistol?
 
@asillasitgets has mentioned the differences but I did want to add this. I spoke to HK representatives in Germany and they have stated that the SFP9 Match Jet funnel will not be coming to the US; not on the VP9 Match nor as an accessory.
I have one of the magwells and several of the SFP9 match magazines for my VP9 Match OR. @Teufelshund Tactical has the trigger bar and the two springs installed in his as well. So, I mean, the parts have come into the country in some limited fashion.

We can debate the merits of micro pistols but what is not debatable is the skills involved in successful action pistol competition. Keep in mind that when US SOCOM units want pistol instruction, they hire IPSC, USPSA champions such as Ben Stoeger and Robert Vogel to teach them.
I don’t think anyone, including @German, would deny that Robert Vogel and Ben Stoeger are excellent competition shooters. Yes, the military contracts with competition shooters for firearms training, but those operators receive a lot of other training that makes them effective in gunfights. Just because you’re a great competition shooter doesn’t mean you’re going to perform well in dangerous or dynamic situations like a gunfight. Along the same lines, selecting a tool for professional use where you may be in a gunfight is much different than selecting a tool for competition.

Shooting drills don’t have relevance in real firearms use? Then what should one use to measure the shootability of firearms and/or the progression of their skills? A shot timer does not lie. Drills provide a measurable metric to gauge and track progress, that is not based on “feelings.”
He’s not suggesting that drills have no place in firearms training. Rather, he’s pointing out that the drills you mentioned aren’t necessarily relevant when selecting a pistol for concealed carry or professional use. While many factors are important in such a decision, few of them are addressed by a Bill Drill or El Presidente, which are more about testing the shooter’s skill than evaluating ones performance in a concealed carry or professional dynamic situation.


I don't? Have a look here. https://www.hkpro.com/threads/close...y.546585/page-11?post_id=4075390#post-4075390

PEW group intended to import the SFP9 Match and deliver by the end of 2022.
You spoke in absolutes, saying it’s never going to happen, and I disagree. Time will tell, but when both pistols are offered in the US, are you going to be man enough to admit you were wrong? Because I’m not going to forget this exchange and the absolute certainty you expressed that the SFP9 Match OR and SFP9CC US variants would never make it to the US.

Lastly, how do you know that I don't own a micro pistol?
I was saying that I do not own a micro pistol, and here I am arguing its merits with you.
 
My point in this was the hypocrisy that the US shooter wants the largest and heaviest pistol for competition, yet where it matters most, they want the smallest and lightest pistol.
I am not sure that you get why that is.

If you would, you wouldn't call it "hypocrisy".

If you really don't see it: These are two totally different use cases.

but what is not debatable is the skills involved in successful action pistol competition. Keep in mind that when US SOCOM units want pistol instruction, they hire IPSC, USPSA champions such as Ben Stoeger and Robert Vogel to teach them.
Yeah, absolutely amazing skills of those competition shooters, no doubt. In competitions. Games for grownups.

And just because some SOCOM Unit hired one or another competition shooter for some training doesn't mean those guys made those operators warfighters.

It's rather a distinctive hint that SOCOM is able to understand that you can isolate technique and training thereof from real world relevant combat tactics that you learn from somebody else. Those guys don't fight wars because some Ben or Robert showed them how to use a pistol for the first time...

Shooting drills don’t have relevance in real firearms use? Then what should one use to measure the shootability of firearms and/or the progression of their skills? A shot timer does not lie. Drills provide a measurable metric to gauge and track progress, that is not based on “feelings.”
I am really not convinced that it's worth the time to discuss this in detail with somebody that obviously doesn't have expert knowledge about the stuff he talks about.

Yes, a shot timer does not lie. It mercilessly shows that somebody focuses on things that are not of primary importance to survive and win a gunfight.

A shot timer is one tool of many in the toolbox that may be able to make you a winner in a gunfight. But it's absolutely not the most important one and one has to be able to "read" it's information.

Same goes for standardized shooting drills. They, too, are one tool of many. They have their use and place at a certain time in training progression, especially if you train bigger groups/organisations. But they are not as important as some YouTube personalities, trick shooters and trainers want to make them appear. You do not learn gunfighting via shooting drills.

And while these drills are not “real life” they certainly develop and measure gun handling and marksmanship skills.
They are "a" measure, but they are not "the" measure. And concentrating on them too much will get you killed because they make you concentrate on things that really don't matter that much. Usually they tend to intensify self-deception and do not necessarily measure what you probably think they measure.

But they surely are a nice way to show off and feel good about oneself. So there's that.
 
You spoke in absolutes, saying it’s never going to happen, and I disagree. Time will tell, but when both pistols are offered in the US, are you going to be man enough to admit you were wrong? Because I’m not going to forget this exchange and the absolute certainty you expressed that the SFP9 Match OR and SFP9CC US variants would never make it to the US.
No, you said I didn't know what the importers on this site will or won’t try regarding the SFP9 Match.
I directed you to a link that stated just what they had done.

Also, I never said the SFP9 Match would never make it, just the SFP9cc.
And I'll do better than admit I'm wrong; if you get an approved Form 6 from the ATF for the SFP9cc, I'll cover the import costs for a SFP9cc for each of us.
 
@YVK thank you for the compliment Sir, I enjoyed our discussion.

Like Michael Corleone, in Godfather II, said "We are all part of the same hypocrisy."
I can't miss out on the fad :LOL:, so I am seriously going to get a CC9. At least to put it through its paces.
 
No, you didn't upset me and no apologies are necessary. We're good, none of this is worth arguing in any other than a lighthearted way. I understood some of the points that you were making, some of your other connections didn't connect for me. Kudos on ending this part of this thread in such exemplary way.

Frankly, I wonder if this should be the end of the whole thread. Thanks to @HK CS1 we now have all the paper information we need and it is time for hands-on impressions.
Great idea!
 
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